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Zorro

You are alredy skeptical, so why go into something your already doubting? Trust your instincts. Don't think that you can go into the Forum and come out unscathed, especially if you don't have any formal psychological and counseling training and an understanding of the mechanisms used on people. Don't go just to get people off of your back that want you to attend. No matter how tough and resistant you think you are you can be broken.

I second this!!!!!! I was skeptical after hearing another lgat's recruitment presentation and I didn't follow my instinct. I was being pressured by the friend who invited me and by the lgat, and I caved in to the pressure (a good candidate for the "courses").

After attending course #1 I was not particularly impressed nor did I desire to try course #2. The paid recruiter managed to talk me into course #2. Course #2 got me. All the slick tricks were employed and I was TOTALLY CONVERTED, against my knowledge and against my will. (In course #2 we were sequestered in the mountains for five days, without timepieces and sans any communication amongst each other.)

I went in suspicious and came out CONverted. One big red flag for me now (in fact, it's a big STOP SIGN) is when someone, friend or otherwise, starts breathing down my neck and pushing on me to get involved in something or other, for my own benefit. Another stop sign is when some product or seminar or whatever is touted to have all the answers to all my problems, and will greatly improve my life for some large sum of money and in just a few days.

Yeh, right!

skeptic

If you feel a sense of responsibility about who you give your money to, your hundreds of dollars are going to the Landmark lawyers who try to silence anyone who criticizes them. Their lawyers, using money from people who took the Forum, tried to shut down the web site you're looking at right now:
[www.culteducation.com]

So, even if you think you can avoid the harm that Landmark will do to you, don't give your money to them so they can keep harming others (if that kind of responsibility means something to you).

Blue Pill

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Choice is better than Deciding because deciding means thinking about it (uuuummm I still don't get that one but its kinda fun to think about in its weird bizzare LM way)

I didn't go through landmine (so don't know their specific BS) but my thought upon reading this is that landmine doesn't like thinking.

Thinking's a threat to lgat illogic. "Trust the process" was one of the mind-numbing slogans in the lgat I wasted time & $$$ in.

And I know what you mean about trying to think about the twisted "concepts" of lgats. To "think" about them does require a special kind of "thinking" ("weird bizzare LM way"). It requires a good ability to twist, lie, manipulate, distort, etc. The "concepts" are nonsensical and illogical. I remember when I tried to think about some of them my brain got all knotted up and so I did the easier thing: I quit thinking about the "apparently" illogical concepts. I CHOSE to "trust the process". <gag>

skeptic



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2007 05:58AM by skeptic.

Anything this controversial...there is a reason...if it smells like a skunk...it ain't a rose

Thanks to everyone who replied... I really appreciate the information. I am definitely leaning against doing the forum now.

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It is not worth the time and money you spend on it. Yes they do have people that have people that are "respected" saying that it's a good thing. But let's look at that closer, have you ever heard of those people before?

But Landmark seems to have to really legitimate experts vouching for them- they have the former head of the American Psychological Association testifying on their behalf that there is nothing harmful about it. They seem to have several mental health experts vouching for them.. as well as some business leaders who said they benefited from the forum- presumably they're not cult zombies.

But that is what is so confusing- you have some sources saying the landmark forum was great- and then others who say that it ruined their lives.

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If you do have issues surrounding traumatization go seek professional counseling.

I've known quite a few people in my life who have gotten the assistance of professional psychotherapists. None of them ever seem to have actually gotten better. I'd also be really hesitant to take this option since I have a security clearance with the government, seeing a psychotherapist could be damaging to my ability to keep it.

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My apologies for being so forward, but I knew a person who thought like you are now, and they no longer have an individual identity and none of their issues have shown any signs of having been dealt with, they just get ignored now.

No need to apologize at all- I came here because I wanted to get the bad side of Landmark.. He doesn't seem like he has any increase in his confidence.

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Mind control, brainwashing, don't take prescription drugs, uncomfortable seating, no toilet breaks, temperature control, guilt trips, commitment = doing what we say, integrity = doing what we say to the exclusion of the reasonable, the rationale or anything which is contrary to our beliefs or evil little plans

How exactly do they control your mind?

I don't really understand how sitting in a room for three days in uncomfortable settings could send someone into a psychosis or make them a mind slave. How exactly do they achieve "Mind Control" over you?

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JaredDC
I don't really understand how sitting in a room for three days in uncomfortable settings could send someone into a psychosis or make them a mind slave. How exactly do they achieve "Mind Control" over you?

Neither will you understand it even if you go and do it. That's the point - its deliberately done in such a way that you don't realise whats happening / happened to you. Its not just one thing, its the combination of subtle techniques all woven together to break down your defences and allow their programming to work on your brain.

Don't take my word for it, read what an expert says, I suggest you read the following on line book Dangerous Persuaders

Landmark are but one of dozens of other con merchants using similar techniques, each one with a different blend and levels of extremity but all to the same end - your wallet and your mind, and your friends wallets and their minds, and their friends and...............so on and so on.

Now do you get it? I do hope so. Tell your friends who encouraged you to do the forum to read this book too - especially Chapter 3 and see if you can shake their brainwashed minds and do them a favour.

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JaredDC
How exactly do they control your mind?

I don't really understand how sitting in a room for three days in uncomfortable settings could send someone into a psychosis or make them a mind slave. How exactly do they achieve "Mind Control" over you?

When you listen to people who tell you what a great and advantageous experience a Landmark Forum is, and all the while you are aware that the very foundation upon which Landmark is built is crooked, highly questionable, copycatted largely from Scientology, and purely unethical in its labor standards and practices, why bother trying to figure out how they get control of your mind, worry instead what they do with it when they gain control. The EX-APA head that Landmark borrows credibility from is just that, EX, and if there are any Psychologists registered and are members in good standing with the APA who promote or encourage Landmark programming onto their clients, I can assure you that those psychologists are breaching a very specific set of standards and code of ethics which are set out by the APA, where practicing and registered psychologists are members.

"1.01 Applicability of the Ethics Code.
The activity of a psychologist subject to the Ethics Code may be reviewed under these Ethical Standards only if the activity is part of his or her work-related functions or the activity is psychological in nature. Personal activities having no connection to or effect on psychological roles are not subject to the Ethics Code."


"1.15 Misuse of Psychologists' Influence.
Because psychologists' scientific and professional judgments and actions may affect the lives of others, they are alert to and guard against personal, financial, social, organizational, or political factors that might lead to misuse of their influence. "


1.17 Multiple Relationships.
(a) In many communities and situations, it may not be feasible or reasonable for psychologists to avoid social or other nonprofessional contacts with persons such as patients, clients, students, supervisees, or research participants. Psychologists must always be sensitive to the potential harmful effects of other contacts on their work and on those persons with whom they deal. A psychologist refrains from entering into or promising another personal, scientific, professional, financial, or other relationship with such persons if it appears likely that such a relationship reasonably might impair the psychologist's objectivity or otherwise interfere with the psychologist's effectively performing his or her functions as a psychologist, or might harm or exploit the other party.


1.19 Exploitative Relationships.
(a) Psychologists do not exploit persons over whom they have supervisory, evaluative, or other authority such as students, supervisees, employees, research participants, and clients or patients. (See also Standards 4.05 - 4.07 regarding sexual involvement with clients or patients.)


1.21 Third-Party Requests for Services.
(a) When a psychologist agrees to provide services to a person or entity at the request of a third party, the psychologist clarifies to the extent feasible, at the outset of the service, the nature of the relationship with each party. This clarification includes the role of the psychologist (such as therapist, organizational consultant, diagnostician, or expert witness), the probable uses of the services provided or the information obtained, and the fact that there may be limits to confidentiality.


PRINCIPLE B: INTEGRITY
Psychologists seek to promote integrity in the science, teaching, and practice of psychology. In these activities psychologists are honest, fair, and respectful of others. In describing or reporting their qualifications, services, products, fees, research, or teaching, they do not make statements that are false, misleading, or deceptive. Psychologists strive to be aware of their own belief systems, values, needs, and limitations and the effect of these on their work. To the extent feasible, they attempt to clarify for relevant parties the roles they are performing and to function appropriately in accordance with those roles. Psychologists avoid improper and potentially harmful dual relationships


PRINCIPLE F: SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY
Psychologists are aware of their professional and scientific responsibilities to the community and the society in which they work and live. They apply and make public their knowledge of psychology in order to contribute to human welfare. Psychologists are concerned about and work to mitigate the causes of human suffering. When undertaking research, they strive to advance human welfare and the science of psychology. Psychologists try to avoid misuse of their work. Psychologists comply with the law and encourage the development of law and social policy that serve the interests of their patients and clients and the public. They are encouraged to contribute a portion of their professional time for little or no personal advantage.


This is just a few sections from the 'ethical principles of Psychologists and code of conduct' that registered and practicing members of the APA violate when they tell the public or their clients to participate in a Landmark Forum or any such organization where its history and practices have proven to be harmful. It doesn't matter that Landmark has a supposed '94%' success and approval rate, what matters is that NONE of their programs have ever stood up to the scrutiny and investigation of real Psychology professionals and scientific methods.

Note in section 1.01 that the code and ethics apply only to those who are involved in functions or activitities that are psychological in nature, and note also that Landmark denies being 'psychological' but uses the label 'transformational' instead. When you think about this, you can't help but gag knowing of the psychological play that happens in a forum while the only transformation notable is often a drastic personality and/or character change. Is this just a 'transformation' or is this the result of intensive psychological manipulation in the participant? To my limited knowledge, Cognitive therapy(often used for anxiety disorders like OCD), accomplishes change in behavior but what was practiced on someone who has 'changed' during a forum, and how did it cause change so quickly? I believe that is where the dangerous techniques come into consideration, and lets not forget the covert and unethical use of hypnosis.

Think about these things and ask the questions Landmark never seems to give a straight answer to, how or why? Basically, a psychologist can't push this stuff onto anyone unless they do it from a personal position but even then they cannot allow their professional title to be misused so as to mislead anyone.

Ethical guidelines and the code of conduct are what separate the professionals in good standing from those who have been compromised psychologically or simply corrupted ethically. Anyone can hold the title 'Doctor' but not all can manage the weight of the ethical expectations that follow such a title. As for business people who push Landmark onto people, the industry pretty much speaks for itself, if it might produce more, then its going to be viewed as being worth a try.


JaredDC, it is entirely up to you if you pay to take a Landmark Forum but don't be naive to Landmark's or any other LGAT's salespitches including those made by so called trusted and respected professionals. Landmark and other LGATs thrive on the naivety of the public at large, it is what they exploit and capitalize on everyday. Don't be one of those people, all you have to do is think and judge critically. If you do decide to participate, don't go down easy, resist the rigidity of the environment--eat when you get hungry, use the bathroom when you need to, ask questions just like you are here, and don't stay up all night doing 'homework'. Be safe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2007 03:12AM by ON2 LF.

Jared..or anyone else listening that is considering or involved in a LGAT...re any person in the field of psychotherapy..head of whatever or not...that field, like any, is comprised of human beings....ie, they all have their own issues as well as do their clients...and this field in particular seems to draw a lot of people that became interested because they have issues they want to fix...I have two friends I know very well in that field...and both had horrific childhoods...and both are very successful...and both still have major problems...one in particular told me himself that is the case,that the biz is full of screwed up people, not everyone of course ...just like any profession..diff is...you can be an emotionall screwed up heart surgeon but his emotional problems don't prevent him from being the best heart surgeon every day with every patient...not the same thing with someone 'fixing' your 'true self'....I dated a guy who is a world renoun psychoanylist...he not only heads the psych dept in one of the largest Universities in the US...he has been on 20/20..twice...he is, without a doubt, the most messed up human I have ever met...I'm talking as bad as it gets..so moral of the story, anyone can give their stamp of approval on anything...so what?...again, anything that has this much controversy sourrounding it is for a reason...why would anyone subject themselves to a program like that when you have read the information that is overwhelming negative...to the max...go buy a book and for 25bucks you can get the same 'good' stuff you will sift through in a LGAT...use the rest of the money to go on a fabulous vacation, and not end up on these blogs because you are pissed and or trying to get your head back on straight

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ON2 LF
Note in section 1.01 that the code and ethics apply only to those who are involved in functions or activitities that are psychological in nature, and note also that Landmark denies being 'psychological' but uses the label 'transformational' instead. When you think about this, you can't help but gag knowing of the psychological play that happens in a forum while the only transformation notable is often a drastic personality and/or character change. Is this just a 'transformation' or is this the result of intensive psychological manipulation in the participant? To my limited knowledge, Cognitive therapy(often used for anxiety disorders like OCD), accomplishes change in behavior but what was practiced on someone who has 'changed' during a forum, and how did it cause change so quickly? I believe that is where the dangerous techniques come into consideration, and lets not forget the covert and unethical use of hypnosis.

Think about these things and ask the questions Landmark never seems to give a straight answer to, how or why? Basically, a psychologist can't push this stuff onto anyone unless they do it from a personal position but even then they cannot allow their professional title to be misused so as to mislead anyone.

Ethical guidelines and the code of conduct are what separate the professionals in good standing from those who have been compromised psychologically or simply corrupted ethically. Anyone can hold the title 'Doctor' but not all can manage the weight of the ethical expectations that follow such a title. As for business people who push Landmark onto people, the industry pretty much speaks for itself, if it might produce more, then its going to be viewed as being worth a try.

There's also the waiver you'll sign that says if they send you over the edge, they are not accountable (hypocrites!)

Jared - I'd urge you to get yourself really educated about Landmark/LGATs, psychological manipulation, thought reform. Read a lot about the tricks and technology of mind control. Otherwise, you're at their mercy if you submit yourself to the program. The nature of mind control is that the subject can't see it. At least if you're knowledgeable you might be able to avoid being manipulated.

I'm reading a book about the scammy public relations industry and in a discussion about psychological manipulation it says: "Christopher Gadsen, another American revolutionary, argued that it was easier to stop the work of 'crafty, dissembling, insinuating men' before rather than after they 'carry their point against you'." Same with lgats. Once they get inside your mind and "transform" you it can be hard to undo the program. The first obstacle to undoing it is that first you must know that you've been manipulated, but good mind control is INVISIBLE.

Things in your life can go dramatically downhill, all the glowing testimonials notwithstanding. It's a big risk. If I had it to do over (not landmark but another of the many carbon copy lgats), I'd run like hell the other way and never look back.

skeptic