Quote
elena

Quote
caligari
Traditionally those honestly practicing a method like magic have exposed charlatans. At the end of his career, Houdini focused on exposing mediums,

[houdini.net]

. Recently Penn & Teller have exposed fake spiritualists on their Showtime program, "Bullshit!",

[www.sho.com]

. It would be nice to have knowledgeable hypnotists exposing Landmark's use of hypnosis.

There was this:

[www.holysmoke.org]


Ellen

That's interesting.

But, what I think would be worthwhile is a knowledgeable hypnotist going through at least the Forum. Then breakdown the hypnotic processes like the Fear Process. Showing inductive methods, triggers suggested, etc. Giving the expected results from the different hypnosis, for instance the fear process could trigger confidence in fearful situations. And comparing the results to those advertised by Landmark. Evaluating the mix of hypnotic methods in the Forum, other courses and volunteering. That way people could really know what type of activity and results would come from participating. And could make informed decisions. And a source for accurate journalistic reporting on Landmark methods could exist.

Thanks Zorro, that helped. But what I still can't comprehend is why people who have been victims of LGAT seem to use the CDs that they come home with to trigger the feelings and goals that were emplanted in them at the training.(i use the term training losely) They can be almost back to their normal selves and then they hear a song that the group played at a low point, or high point, and then the brainwashing or hypnosis or whatever it is kicks in and they are lacking critical thinking again.

Quote
notmuch4games
Thanks Zorro, that helped. But what I still can't comprehend is why people who have been victims of LGAT seem to use the CDs that they come home with to trigger the feelings and goals that were emplanted in them at the training.(i use the term training losely) They can be almost back to their normal selves and then they hear a song that the group played at a low point, or high point, and then the brainwashing or hypnosis or whatever it is kicks in and they are lacking critical thinking again.

I didn't get any CD's with Landmark. Maybe other groups give them out, which wouldn't surprise me. That would be a good way to reinforce their brainwashing for sure. They played a couple of really hokie (at least to me anyway) songs that I don't even remember. They also played short video clips from Monty Python and from Karate Kid (hmmm....trying to appeal to younger boomers and gen-x'ers like myself). The most memorable thing I remember is that one day some of the center leaders got together infront of the SELP class and sang some lame ass song about prospecting for people and something about possibilites. There sheer stupidity embarassed me at that time, eventhough I was Lekked out.

After leaving Landmark I have reactions to certain things that I come across. There are a couple of commercials that sing about "Possibilities" that get played here in the North Texas area. One is put on by Sam's club and one is by Campbell's soup. When I hear it I actually have a physical reaction that makes me feel ill. I also really cringe and get a bit ill when I hear many of the soft rock music songs from the 70's. I used to listen at times, when I was in Landmark, to a local public broadcast station that plays hit's from the 70's. Now when I tune it in I cringe and have a similar reaction where I get ill.

Also during my Lekkie phase I used to listen to a lot of Raymond Aaron CD's. But after I found out about his link to Landmark through a former EST person I quit listening to his stuff. I haven't thrown the stuff out, but I will not allow myself to play the CD's. Neither will I let anyone have them. I don't wan't someone to listen to a Guru that's full of BS.

I don't know why anyone would want to listen something that an LGAT gave them. I sure as heck wouldn't. I'll probably wait a very long time to watch Monty Python's Meaning of Life or the Karate Kid again. I'm not too keen on finding out if they would make me go barf in a trash can.

Zorro's descriptions of reactions to music are very interesting.

Here is a scenario for us to contemplate:

If any books or other study aids are assigned, as part of the curriculum in advanced courses, it might be helpful to give a list. Doesnt matter which LGAT or other group you were in.

Even if something wasnt assigned its interesting to ponder what books, films music or other art were recommended or at least in frequent use----either as part of the process or later on, in the work environment.

(Ditto for clothing styles? Perfumes? Dont laugh. Scent has a powerful subliminal impact.)

Even if these books, films or music were not produced by authors or artists directly affiliated the group in question, they might have an impact (which the authors or artists might themselves deplore!) if used by a group as part of its induction process--or at least as part of a high demand group's boundary building/tribalism process.

If so, a person who later became disaffected and left such a group might, without realizing it, possibly find themselves re-triggered if they were to re-read those books, or re-visit films or music they'd been exposed to in the group, either as part ofhte induction process, or merely by working at the group's facilities or office.

Note: a man who managed a drug recovery house told me that he personally reviewed all films before they were shown to the clients. Some popular movies glorify drugs. He said it was hard enough recovering from crack or cocaine addiction without watching a movie that showed one or more luscious, lingering close up scenes of a suitcase bulging with cocaine packets.

And, some years ago, I read an item written by someone who had left a high demand esoteric cult. The leader lived in luxury and required members to expose themselves only to an approved list of muscians, artists and books, on grounds that this would accelerate their progress.

The person reported that after they realized the abusive nature of the group and left, for a number of years after their departure, while purging the group's influence, this person found it painful and triggering to (hear this) listen to the music of J. S. Bach.

Bach had been one of of the musicians on the cult leader's approved list. That music became part of the groups psychological levers, linked to the pattern of hope and fear and craving fostered in the group.

This shows that even quite good material (and from someone who wrote that music centuries before that particular cult existed!) can be co-opted for purposes of emotional/intellectual/psychological bondage.

So if anyone is trying to get free from a high demand group, whether an LGAT or some other type of group, they may need to examine what *books, CDs or films or music* might possibly have been used as part of the instruction and if this could be part of a set of triggers hindering recovery.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2007 10:51PM by corboy.

Quote
corboy
So if anyone is trying to get free from a high demand group, whether an LGAT or some other type of group, they may need to examine what *books, CDs or films or music* might possibly have been used as part of the instruction and if this could be part of a set of triggers hindering recovery.

A most intriguing point corboy, its got me wondering..
I wonder if revisiting the same music, sounds, scents, or books associated with a particular LGAT could also work a negative effect, where instead of consistently being retriggered by the same stimuli, could one become desensitized to that stimuli, and the repeated exposure to the sounds, scents etc. result in habituation instead?

If one were to replay, reread, or even just rehash whatever materials were used in their indoctrination process, could it maybe diminish the power of these sounds, scents or literature to control the person?
What I'm thinking of is staring straight into the 'eye of the hurricane' so to speak and robbing it of its power to control or trigger programmed responses. Is this a possibility in the context and nature of mind control?

Yes I remember the Karate Kid extract because it was one of the points in my journey into hell where my "voice" said "Hang on a minute - this is just brainwashing".

Upon reflection, I remember that this piece was used very deliberately and with exact timing. It was just after a few brave souls had dared to challenge once more the relentless enrolment bollocks. After about an hour of battering these individuals into submission, out came the Karate Kid piece.

The message was roughly "You see, you really just don't get it, Landmark know far more than you can possibly ever know and you are so pathetically ignorant you could not possibly even know when we, your superiors, your god in fact are training you to be more like us. So stop whatever is left in you which is resisting and give in to our all knowing perfect way of life"

I remember after playing this and the Meaning of Life extracts no further questioning occured. Programming Complete.

Oh, I also remember the clip of Meaning of Life was deliberately stopped at the end when Eric Idle says the secret to Life is something along the lines of reading a good book, getting enough sleep and exercise etc. Funny that - I wonder why that bit was edited out! Slightly different message to Landmarks version of the secret to Life now isn't it.

You know given the whole Monty Python blip and it's imagery. I'm really surprised they didn't throw in some Pink Floydd "The Wall" clips.....Oh wait a minute that particular Pink Floydd is about rebellion against thought control!!!! Something Landmark wouldn't want to convey.....

First I want to thank Rick Ross and all those who've posted on Landmark. You have saved my sanity and I don't say that lightly.

I've been reading many threads for the past few weeks, processing what I've learned.

I've chosen to bump this one up to the top because I believe its what they don't tell you at Landmark that is so dangerous. I was amazed and then relieved to discover they used hypnosis on me which also induced the euphoria I felt for nearly 3 weeks after I did the Forum.

The Louise Samways book mentioned on this thread is highly enlightening on that. Please do read it if you haven't.

I am not happy they used hypnosis on me but I am relieved that my mental state after walking away from Landmark was not entirely down to me.

I got involved because like many I was desperate and vulnerable. I knew I was depressed. I mentioned this when I signed up. They did not deter me beyond saying - discuss this with a doctor. "But what was there to discuss?" I wondered. "How would being with a large group of people be dangerous, simply learning ideas?" I'd been in work seminars before but not with such large numbers. I did not talk to my doctor but I did discuss this with a friend who is a professional counsellor, whose husband and teenage children had done Landmark. She said I would be fine. I later discovered that she doesn't ever want to do it.

I left Landmark after completing the Forum, the seminar and The Advanced course. I was about to start SELP but I was tired, already feeling unwell and needed to focus on more pressing issues. & I was tired of the pressure to recruit people.

If they had let me put back SELP, I suspect I may still be involved with them. Luckily for me, I had an unpleasant conversation with the course leader where he tried to deflect my reasons for leaving into something personal from my childhood. At that time I was tired, wrung out and I duly accepted what was said and even told my group afterwards. Then the coach gave out all these petty rules. I couldn't understand why I needed to be rung up on the day of each session to see if I would be attending, or why another member of my group needed to warn me five minutes before the session was due to start. I left that session feeling very uneasy.

I awoke in absolute terror that night at 3am. I knew I had to get out. In the UK they have a 24 hour helpline called the Samaritans and I phoned them. & what was really going on started to fall into place. At a sociable hour I phoned my coach and said I'm not coming back and whilst they could phone me, I wouldn't be answering my phone.

They actually never tried to get me back and I got a refund on that part of the course. I'm sure they left me alone because I never brought anyone to an introduction night.

However, that is not where my story ends. My depression had crept back during the Advanced course. I felt very frightened during the 2nd day and again tried to leave. I muttered that I wanted to die. This did send some alarm bells, or appeared to and I was taken backstage, so to speak. I ended up denying that I meant it and they allowed me to stay.

I never got any buzz from the Advanced course and the only thing I enjoyed were the small group of participants I ended up with. At the time, I thought we were a proper group. I know now we are not.

Two months after I'd left Landmark and with no intention of returning, my depressive thoughts got worse and worse. Now I knew that life was empty and meaningless too. I was even detached from my depression and more rational about taking that irreversable step than I ever was before. I had no idea this had anything to do with Landmark other than I'd seen this as a last resort.

By pure co-incidence, I came across Landmark on a TV show. Suddenly I was alive, buzzing again with energy but that didn't feel right. I googled for negative aspects of Landmark and found this wonderful website.

I spent time writing out what has happened to me and the journey I took. I now clearly saw that because I was vulnerable and desperate, I over looked so many personal warning signs. It was heart breaking to see this but a useful lesson too. At least five times, my subconscious pulled me to blackness, saying this is a con, get out but by then I believed that this was simply a story and not true. More Landmark training or rather brainwashing.

Writing and remembering my Forum experience actually made my head physically hurt. I've never experienced something like that before. For two days afterwards I was in more despair. Then I went out with some real friends and normality has returned.

Thankfully I have a happy outcome. I no longer wish to change myself or see myself as needing to change. That it is a huge relief and blessing. & I finally accept what my real friends have been telling me for years which is that I am a strong person. I'm so grateful to my subconscious sending me those warning signs and preventing me totally being taken over by Landmark. I already knew that depression is an act of self preservation and now I have proof.

For anyone thinking of getting involved with Landmark, please don't. You have no control over what goes on and these people simply push emotional buttons for dramatic effect & to create the euphoria which hooks you in. That kind of high cannot come from personal insights alone.

Quote

For anyone thinking of getting involved with Landmark, please don't. You have no control over what goes on and these people simply push emotional buttons for dramatic effect & to create the euphoria which hooks you in. That kind of high cannot come from personal insights alone.

What may also happen to some persons is that as time goes on and you grow more and more exhausted, your body and central nervous system become depleted, and your neurotransmitter levels become depleted, so the euphoria fades and then doses of Landmark tech fail to produce the original high that was so convincing at the time.

This is just a laypersons guess.

Ive listened to many recovering addicts report how that first exposure to to a drug gave them their first and most ecstatic 'high' and that they were never able to replicate it, despite high and higher doses of that same drug.

Its biochemistry. We get an initial high, whether from an LGAT or from street drugs, because our bodies are full of 'juice'--our neurotransmitters are high. As we are exposed to repeated doses of that same LGAT 'tech' or the same drug, we become like an orange in which more and more of the juice is squeezed out. Our neurotransmitter levels become depleted and we cannot respond.

So we end up not only with the problems we had before exposure to the LGAT or the drug, but with an additional level of physical depletion to contend with--and possibly with lost money and if scolded by too many abusive people, a load of trauma we did not have prior to the start of the process.

I am against Landmark, But what does anyone have to say about the people that are active in it for years and intend to be active in it forever that never seem to suffer negative effects? Are their minds so gone that they never get anything negative from the experience? I ask because my friend who has been active for 5 years and stated one day he would like to be a forum leader has not one single negative thought or experience regarding landmark. He says people that say negative things about landmark show that the teaching isn't working, that they have barriers to overcome he doesn't believe there is any merit to the negative stories people have told without pinning the blame directly back on to them. He sees no unbalance in the good and bad, only good and what is other peoples faults. So no matter what they are presented with nothing is landmarks fault and they go on their happy little way.

Until people that are so strung out on landmark are capable of seeing what this entity is capable of doing (Hurting many many people) Landmark will never go away it will always be around the corner waiting to suck more people in.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 12:24AM by magpie.