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corboy
Elena I want to send you a PM, but your 'sent' file is full so Ive not been able to
do it.

Corboy

I emptied almost everything out but I still can't get any messages and it says my box is full.

I sent you another email address.


E

Hi Elena,

I found that with the new board, if your "sent" file is full, the Inbox is full message comes up.

Hope

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MarkusWelch

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caligari

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elena

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caligari
I'm surprised that hynosis isn't brought up more in discussing Landmark and it's methods, particularly in journalistic articles. It's possible to discount brainwashing since it's a term that loosely used and often not exact. It's original meaning was though reform through physically coerced methods like the North Korean origins. This can be contested. Hypnosis is pretty clearly in use and unethically.

I would just like to point out that whether you call it "brainwashing," "thought reform," or "covert persuasion," Ofshe and Singer, in their essay, "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques," explain and differentiate between first-generation and second-generation tactics and second-generation ones used by such groups as Landmark and Lifespring as well as the better-known cults are that much more effective because they are "uncoerced" seductions and target "central" or more primal elements of self as opposed to "peripheral," which include such things as political persuasion, national identity, and fraternal affiliations.


Ellen

That is one source with a interesting, perhaps accurate and useful description of the techniques. But, in over 30 years of reporting on organizations like Landmark, terms like cult and brainwashing have not had significant impact. It was facts like the sexual and physical abuse by Werner and his associates in the 60 minutes piece that had immediate impact. It is provable facts like unethical use of hypnosis -- which has decades of scientific evidence from many sources -- that I see as useful. Terms and claims that can be disputed and argued over lead to mostly that.

I don't think significant impact would result here. By the time there is a shift in thinking, a "tipping point" if you will, that begins to accept or 'mainstream' hypnosis itself, Landmark will admit to using it in "new" courses based on the most recent technology and maybe follow it up by saying it works.

I think you would need that large or popular recognition of hypnosis prior to claiming any person or org used it unethically to cause an uproar IMO...but once it is recognized as legit, landmark will claim to use it.

Just my $.02

Regards,

Markus

What I see as worthwhile is making known the actual facts about Landmark's courses. If Landmark doesn't provide informed consent, then others should. It should be plain and obvious that Landmark uses hypnosis. What the benefits, detriments and limits to hypnotic methods are. And how Landmark implements hypnosis in their courses and on unpaid volunteers (employees.) Then people can make informed decisions about their involvement. Inaccurate information either positive or negative is of little benefit.

What Landmark is doing is taking advantage of a lack of knowledge about hypnosis. Though it's more difficult and longer to educate people about hypnosis, I think it gets to an essential method that Landmark has in all of it's practices. It takes work to let people know about this; but once it's known, Landmark can't skirt the issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 02:57AM by caligari.

By all means, yes we need to keep educating the public about the impact
of hypnosis, and also of sleep deprivation and even scripted room set ups

(eg the drew kopp article)

But, it will be difficult to get this across, because it runs counter to a cherished
and inaccurate perception that many have--that our minds are our own private
turf, that our minds and emotions are our own and under our conscious, willed control.

Any suggestion that this supposedly private part of ourselves is highly malleable to outside influences, especially when covert, triggers outrage and anxiety.

And it is this assumption that our minds are our own private turf, impervious to outside influence that makes us so vulnerable in relation to any person or group who KNOWS that this is not so, that human beings are social, and that our minds and selves can, all too easily be de-constructed and disrupted by anyone who has the skill to do the job--and can coax us into a setting where this can take place.

As mentioned on another thread, the impact of sleep deprivation, all by itself, is profoundly disruptive to thought and emotion.

We are so easily influenced by fear of social embarassment and by what others think.

When depressed, we are easily conned into buying or even eating stuff that we dont need.

There are times when it is a much greater source of mental and emotional power to know how potentially influencable we are---because this gives us an incentive to learn what our trigger points are, and how to avoid persons or situations that are risky.

Those who love to eat, and know that some situations and foods are triggers for them, have a pre-planned strategy for holiday parties to ensure they dont get triggered.

Really alert dieters will even know what to do if, at a party, something happens to upset them and have a strategy to ensure they'll not react by eating too much.

That recognition of one's influence--ability/vulnerability is a greater source of personal power than going to a party and saying,'I'll just use my will power.'

I have been following you guys for a couple of days now. Some very good info on this thread. I have a question-please give me some imput so I can understand how it works.....

Can someone tell me exactly how LM uses hypnosis on it's victims? Is there music, or some other trigger that they send recruits home with to "remind" them of their goals?

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notmuch4games
I have been following you guys for a couple of days now. Some very good info on this thread. I have a question-please give me some imput so I can understand how it works.....

Can someone tell me exactly how LM uses hypnosis on it's victims? Is there music, or some other trigger that they send recruits home with to "remind" them of their goals?

When I did the Fear process it was classical group hypnosis with people laying down on the floor, closing their eyes, and following the suggestions of the session leader. The leader speaks in the standard deap, monotone voice of hypnosis. Repeated suggestions of imagining fear situations as if they're real are repeated. You can hear others around you reacting with fear. Ending with suggestions and trigger of fealing confidence in fear situation is implemented at the end. There are other closed-eyed "processes" (hypnosis) in the courses and when volunteering.

Less obvious are open eyed processes throughout the courses and volunteering to re-enforce past hypnotic suggestion and create new suggestions and triggers.

Music is not used to my knowledge.

Traditionally those honestly practicing a method like magic have exposed charlatans. At the end of his career, Houdini focused on exposing mediums,

[houdini.net]

. Recently Penn & Teller have exposed fake spiritualists on their Showtime program, "Bullshit!",

[www.sho.com]

. It would be nice to have knowledgeable hypnotists exposing Landmark's use of hypnosis.

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corboy
By all means, yes we need to keep educating the public about the impact
of hypnosis, and also of sleep deprivation and even scripted room set ups

(eg the drew kopp article)

But, it will be difficult to get this across, because it runs counter to a cherished
and inaccurate perception that many have--that our minds are our own private
turf, that our minds and emotions are our own and under our conscious, willed control.

Any suggestion that this supposedly private part of ourselves is highly malleable to outside influences, especially when covert, triggers outrage and anxiety.

And it is this assumption that our minds are our own private turf, impervious to outside influence that makes us so vulnerable in relation to any person or group who KNOWS that this is not so, that human beings are social, and that our minds and selves can, all too easily be de-constructed and disrupted by anyone who has the skill to do the job--and can coax us into a setting where this can take place.

As mentioned on another thread, the impact of sleep deprivation, all by itself, is profoundly disruptive to thought and emotion.

We are so easily influenced by fear of social embarassment and by what others think.

When depressed, we are easily conned into buying or even eating stuff that we dont need.

There are times when it is a much greater source of mental and emotional power to know how potentially influencable we are---because this gives us an incentive to learn what our trigger points are, and how to avoid persons or situations that are risky.

Those who love to eat, and know that some situations and foods are triggers for them, have a pre-planned strategy for holiday parties to ensure they dont get triggered.

Really alert dieters will even know what to do if, at a party, something happens to upset them and have a strategy to ensure they'll not react by eating too much.

That recognition of one's influence--ability/vulnerability is a greater source of personal power than going to a party and saying,'I'll just use my will power.'

Better living through chemistry, Corboy. Within, there's a really cool amount of control.

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caligari
Traditionally those honestly practicing a method like magic have exposed charlatans. At the end of his career, Houdini focused on exposing mediums,

[houdini.net]

. Recently Penn & Teller have exposed fake spiritualists on their Showtime program, "Bullshit!",

[www.sho.com]

. It would be nice to have knowledgeable hypnotists exposing Landmark's use of hypnosis.

There was this:

[www.holysmoke.org]




Ellen

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notmuch4games
I have been following you guys for a couple of days now. Some very good info on this thread. I have a question-please give me some imput so I can understand how it works.....

Can someone tell me exactly how LM uses hypnosis on it's victims? Is there music, or some other trigger that they send recruits home with to "remind" them of their goals?

There is not any music used to hypnotize people. But they work you over mentally through circular reasoning, long hours into the evening, control of the room environment, control of breaks and meal time. They wear the participants down which puts them into a highly suggestive state, you will be struggling to grasp the concepts and wanting to figure out what they are talking about. They constantly repeat their jargon and want of the participants to recruit others. When a person leaves the "marathon" they are in a highly suggestive state, which stays around with the person if they continue on in the following weeks in the seminars if the participant enrolls in one. The bad thing is that the highly suggestive state doesn't close down once leaving a Landmark session. At that point you are even open to suggestions outside of Landmark and therefore even suggestions coming from environment can leave an imprint. It could be good suggestions or bad suggestions. The bad ones could leave a mark and then you get distressed and go back to Landmark seeking help for the problems and you get more of the same b.s. and it becomes a vicious downward spiral. It can be really bad if normal environment outside of Landmark is very negative.

But the Fear Exercise is straight up hypnosis. They ask you to close your eyes and start imagining the people and being scared of them. If you follow it to the T it can be intense. I heard people burst out crying! This hypnosis is done after you've been worn down and are vulnerable, so imagine the added impact it has. In my case I was sitting up in a chair, that's how they conducted it in my Forum. It was hard for me to grasp it since I wasn't the fearful type. I fully believe that the purpose of this exercise is to instill fear in people at various levels which can only grow over time. For me I became fearful of things overtime that otherwise wouldn't bother me or even have considered being afraid of before.

Now that I look back on it. This Fear exercise is a seed or foundation they build on. This is because that is what you basically work on from that point forward, fears. If you don't have them you go looking for them! The ones you have you pull out and get up close with which only makes matters worse. I freakin despise Landmark because of this. It destroys peoples lives.