The Skepdic's Dictionary has a rather long article about "EMDR." Looks like the practice has also attracted the requisite number of opportunists and scammers.



[skepdic.com]



Ellen

I have only skimmed this in the past. But now that you mention it the reason it appears to work may be hypnosis.

I'm not prepared to discuss it. I just have not worked on it.

But remember that almost no one is aware of the conflict of physiology nor is anyone screening for it.

When studies group subjects in to controls and active participants they do not know if anyone of either group is severely exposed to this problem. They don't even know the problem exists.

You might say this phenomenon is a wild card in all studies that do not include screening for people who probably are exposed. All students are potentially exposed.

Students and Knowledge workers have the same behaviors. They must concentrate and exclude everything happening around them to work or study.

Too close side-by-side seating in all classrooms copies the design problem that allowed the original discovery in the 1960's.

The level of stimulation would be low. But ADD, ADHD, Panic Attacks, and Schizophrenia hint that there is a persistent level of exposure for students.

Researcher:

Has this research been conducted by scientific means and by what professionals specifically?

What studies can you cite that were sponsored by what institution?

And were the results then peer-reviewed and subsequently published?

If so, please cite the title of the subsequently published research/study, the publisher and its publication date.

This information did not appear on your personal website.

It seems your claims have been discreditted though. The Skeptic's Dictionary notes this.

See [skepdic.com]

Quote

...the research regarding the necessity of the eye movement component is currently inconclusive...No one has been able to adequately explain how EMDR is supposed to work.

And eye movement theory has little, if anything, to do with the subjects or groups discussed at this board.

I don't see anything compelling in your posts or your website to demonstrate otherwise. And this has nothing to do with Landmark or any other group discussed here.

It seems like you are using this board to promote your theories and website, rather than contribute in any meaningful way to the discussion here.

I didn't mean to imply what "researcher" posted was similar or related to EMDR, just that there might be a connection.



Ellen

Quote
elena
I didn't mean to imply what "researcher" posted was similar or related to EMDR, just that there might be a connection.


Ellen

Ellen, Understood, no problem. --- Researcher

I use EST to make the connection between Large Group Seminars and the phenomenon designers and engineers discovered. It doesn't make any difference what the subject of a seminar is.

An aggressive lecturer was the connection the experts made at the time. (link below)

My obvious connection is that EST produced psychotic episodes.

[b:9402b00236]I supply information about the phenomenon that actually caused them. [/b:9402b00236]

[b:9402b00236]Repeating the point[/b:9402b00236]--The episodes are already mentioned on the
Rick Ross site.

[www.culteducation.com]

The key is understanding the phenomenon and how it works. After that everything will fall into place.

It is not theory that sudden onset psychotic episodes happen with several activities. But it is difficult to perceive the connecting between Qi Gong and someone sitting at an unprotected desk in a business office.

I will have illustrations soon. That may communicate this to you better.

You may write and publish your own work if you wish. I appreciate a link when you do.

Elena:

Thanks for posting that link.

It does show the shaky foundation "researcher" rests upon.

Frankly, he or she has failed to substantiate any of the claims made with hard objective, peer-reviewed and published research, despite the handle used.

And frankly the posts by researcher seem off topic and rather forced.

That is, the connection between Landmark and the supposed "research" doesn't exist.

I think we should move on.

IMHO, Researcher's web site makes some interesting points. There are some references on his web site to early research in office design.

No disregard for Rick's expertise here. I agree, more references on Researchers website would be invaluable.

Still, given the topic of this thread, the basic points on his site are intriguing.

I think the basic point, and relevance here, is that attempting to concentrate when in a space with others and constant movement of others (even if they are also quietly writing), can cause psychological stress - psychosis in extreme situtations. The peripheral vision stimulus is an interesting theory (where did that theory originate?). This is separate from discussion eye movement; it is the peripheral vision's detection of surrouding movements.

The connection, I imagine, to an LGAT environment is that during those long hours in a Training session, participants spend some time focused and writing individually. Attempting to concentrate, with ongoing nearby peripheral stimulation, can lead to psychological stress - just as can the long hours surrounded by other people, concentrating or not, from ongoing peripheral visual stimulation.

It's another way that visual stimuli affect psychology, just as the hyper clean and hyper orderliness mentioned in earlier postings on this thread.
(I work in a busy office, and can vouch for the stress of sometimes just too many inoccuous things happening around me, while trying to concentrate. It is stressful).
12-14 hours of people around me in an enclosed space would drive me bananas.

That's why in the hospital they give us private 'sleep rooms' when we have an on-call- shift of 12 or 24 hours (obstetricians, midwives, and other medical providers). It's not only a space to sleep, it's a just a get-away-into-a-private-cave space. The brain needs a getaway break. It is logical that the eye (part of the brain) needs a visiual reprieve.

I used to have a dog who regularly sat with her nose in a corner of the kitchen when I had a parties. She just sat there, like a punished child, facing the corner; it was obvious she was getting away from the party stimulation. After 15 minues of her self imposed time-out, she returned and was fine. A mammalian response?

Researcher, could you add some more references on your website? You mention some names and years, but the full references are lacking. They would be worth reading.

Thank you,
toni :D

I have several Cd's with saved data on this subject. But the site lists the links with solid information. I try not to use questionable sources. Links come and go on the Internet so that much of my saved information is no longer available to new readers.

I have had communication from a degree candidate in Australia. She used my site to supply ideas for her thesis on [b:9cdc9285e7]Subliminal Distraction[/b:9cdc9285e7]. I have been promised a copy. If things workout she may allow publication.

Subliminal Distraction is the term she used. Her communication was that there is little available anywhere on this subject.

While I do not see conspiracy in the history of this phenomenon she thought the design community had some responsibility for the closely held information.

I view this as more of an accident of history.

A previous email exchange I had with a PhD in psychology disputed visual Subliminal Distraction. He understood Subliminal Distraction to be auditory input while attempting to concentrate. But hearing is sensory adaptable. The stimulus would decrease if the sensor cells chemically deplete. You may only find auditory references on-line.

[b:9cdc9285e7]I can tell you where you will not find information.[/b:9cdc9285e7] A volunteer, working in field of neurology, on another forum recently ran all the terms through the APA database trying to help me. He could find nothing.

The two significant links as I view this history are the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry and a PubMed article that repeats that information. If readers do not have paid access the abstract is available free at the link below. It contains the conclusion.

This was the first time operant conditioning was determined to be able to cause a serious mental condition. Note that the second article determines that the condition was definitely related to being a lumberjack in a cold weather area.

That is the basis for my statement concerning packing men into camp-houses or bunkhouses.

Those investigators could not find the source of that operant conditioning. The discovery of the source would only come in the 1960's. Still the psychologists did not understand what they had found. They believed that the office environment and close-spacing were necessary. They understood the outcome to be pseudo-psychosis that resolved quickly with no treatment.

That information was given on a magazine TV show I saw a small part of it and found two people who viewed the whole show. We all thought the show was 20/20 but a search of 20/20 transcript subject titles does not have it.

[www.cpa-apc.org]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

These links are on-site if they fail to work here. (Culture Bound Syndromes and Cause of Psychotic Mental Illness)

The 1960's discovery involved Herman Miller Inc and Steelcase. There may have been others. I plan to do library research soon. I am disabled and my wife's mental condition limits my outside activities.

I am attempting to narrow the time window for the publication of any article written as a result of that discovery. That would help me since my available time to stand up and walk around is limited. (unstable spine) This was work-for-hire rather than research for academic or medical purposes. There may be little published information available. I now suspect it was only reported as a news article in engineering and design journals.

My computer instructor had heard of the discovery when we discussed this in class forty years ago. It was published somewhere.

The basics were fully explained in a psychology lecture in about 1990. I found my psychology instructor now a Ph.D in Child Development. She remembered me but not the Psychophysics lecture. (My site was not up at that time.)

[b:9cdc9285e7]Research:[/b:9cdc9285e7] The phenomenon produces a psychotic episode. I believe it would be impossible to get approval to do subject research. I am unaware of anyone who has done direct on-point research.

There are research projects on some of the behaviors the phenomenon probably causes, ICU Psychosis. I have responses from university medical centers indicating their interest.

Harvard Med is doing Qi Gong research. I have been unable to contact anyone there.

Herman Miller Inc. and Steelcase Will not comment. I have even pretended to be a customer wanting information on Cubicle Level Protection. Someone else may have better luck.

Anyone is welcome to jump in and write their own articles. I would appreciate a note so I can link to your work.

OK.

I think we have exhausted this.

This subject matter really has very little, if anything to do with the subjects discussed here.

I'd just like to add that all the rules they impose on attendees are just another form of control. If one wants to lead a disciplined life, then that dicipline has to be imposed from within. Forcing it on someone from the outside only generates resistance and bitterness within. Of course they'll be telling you to suppress all that too. Serenity now, insanity later.