Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: Vic-Luc ()
Date: October 15, 2007 04:32AM

question lady
Isn't that kind of like going to a domestic violence surivors support forum and telling the survivors that what they really need is to have the crap beat out of them?

It is very similar.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: October 15, 2007 04:35AM

PS What's with the universal "we"?

The corollary to this principle is that, left to the whimsy of life’s experience, people are likely to become self-sabotaging, prickly and sometimes pathological beings. To some degree, we all agree with this idea. We all agree that life itself isn’t a sufficient teacher.

Expressing your own opinion as if it is a universally held one is a very good example of true "broken thinking".

My observation is that "left to the whimsy of life's experience" people mature, become more confident, and gain wisdom - unless they're hijacked along the way by an lgat, in which case they do tend to regress (literally, according to independent psychological studies of lgats). Being hijacked by an lgat is deliberate manipulation and exploitation, not whimsy.

But LGATs claim to provide a particular sort of aptitude: they claim to educate us in very specific areas of human proficiency. Namely, LGATs are schools of meta-life – proposing to take a view from 30,000 feet and then to translate that perspective into greater, more productive lives. This perspective, the thinking goes, would create a much greater degree of clarity and would remove the many self-delusions that we suffer. These self-delusions, or “broken thinking,” apparently plagues the human race in its pursuit of peace and happiness.

Boonetahoe, your opinions are not moderate. Your tone is arrogant and condescending, your underlying philosophy sounds like an lgat introduction night and you have made some sweeping insulting statements about people on this board. You have also deliberately taken an Impact discussion off the Impact thread and quoted things from that discussion out of context. That is a common troll tactic - which doesn't mean you are a troll, but its a good warning sign.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: MartinH ()
Date: October 15, 2007 06:03AM

I have just waited for this, someone from an LGAT group telling me that I need a psychotherapist or training and that my life does not work ...
I have experienced an LGAT (Landmark Education), and my opinion and experience is, it does not work and it did more damage than good.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: MartinH ()
Date: October 15, 2007 06:12AM

This is the only message board I know where I could express my negative experiences with an LGAT and I am very happy that this board exists. You don't have to watch this board for years. I still do not go to an LGAT introduction and express my negative thoughts and experiences. I just want to stay away from any arrogant LGAT leader.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: Blue Pill ()
Date: October 15, 2007 06:14AM

You sound like a very reasonable chap and I respect you for this very reasoned and balanced comment. I disagree with your conclusion however.

My experience is purely of Landmark, the few seminars I attended, the effect it had on someone I loved and the route cause of a relationship break-up. I have posted a range of criticism's of this organisation on this board. Why? Well yes, a Psychologist may read my ramblings and indeed conclude I might need some “help”. Some might say I have used this place as a means for grounding my anger and frustration, others that I was reaching out to see if “I was not alone”. Both are no doubt true and being really truthful, about this, I may well have flipped out big time if I had not had a place to vent this emotion.

Let me give you a very specific experience with which to demonstrate where my loathing came from. My ex was constantly telling me with total conviction “I was the most important thing in her life”. Close to our relationship finally ending she called me to see if we could rescue things. Strangely, something had altered in her and she seemed to be seeing my point of view about how her Landmark commitments were consuming her life. I was overwhelmed with happiness and offered to come round the following evening to hopefully get things resolved. Guess what? – Landmark commitment. The next night? Landmark Commitment. The next Day? Landmark commitment…………etc etc etc. I pleaded with her, to once, put our relationship first and see me the next evening. She refused, stating that it was imperative that she did her Landmark commitment – she had given her word.

This is obviously just one small microcosm, an anecdote that could have different interpretations. But can’t you see how inherently EVIL this manipulation is? Landmark volunteers are brow beaten, bullied and psychologically abused by their peers and leaders into “being their word”. They are “being trained” they claim to have a powerful life that works for them. In so doing, everything else in these people’s life becomes second place to the point were they actually destroy things, not make them work.

You talk of the importance of enquiry into human behaviour, to find “a better” way of being and to evolve our ideas to avoid the obvious catastrophes we are creating for our race. I totally agree with that idea. Our existing religions and institutions are simply not fit for purpose anymore and something radical has to happen, soon. However, if the only answer is the LGAT way that is currently on the table, the hypocrisy, the corruption, the manipulation and brainwashing that goes on I think I would rather just go with the current systems thanks, and maybe work out a way of evolving ideas that does not resemble Nazi Germany or any other horrific, totalitarian control freak system that various cultures have experimented with in the past.

The participants of this board are, in my opinion, like me horrified at the methods and tactics utilised by these institutions. Probably most have had their lives or lives of their loved ones and friends seriously compromised or even ruined. They simply want to speak out, vent their angst, check they are not alone. If that means that its unbalanced and in some cases offensive to some then so be it. No doubt if LGATS could find a legitimate way of closing these sites down they would do and probably hunt down the individuals ruthlessly for years to come.

LGATS behave like an extremist immigrant who has moved from a country run by a dictator, only to then protest to the authorities to have freedom of speech closed down on any debate about their imported faith systems, the very same faith systems that were either banned or controlled by the regime from which they have fled. What’s more they revel in telling the population of the country in which they reside just how wrong they are for tolerating this corrupt way of life (whilst breaking the laws of their new country like they don’t matter)

You wonder why there is so much anger and vitriol here?

Go figure……..

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: ON2 LF ()
Date: October 15, 2007 06:46AM

At the same time, the vitriolic and closed-mindedness of so many board participants discredits their opinions. A greater degree of moderation would go a long ways to making rational criticisms of LGATs more credible. Nobody is inspired by a hater.)

typical approach at manipulating a crowd into letting down all appropriate guards and soaking up whatever you might have to say.
What you view as being closed minded is merely the wisdom and insights gained from some unfortunate experiential scenarios in LGATs, at various levels of involvement.
The greater degree of moderation you call for is actually making exceptions and accomodating certain LGATs, perhaps?
A hater? Is one who hates, one who disagrees without apology or possibility of coercion and influence?
Listen to yourself, review your own posts, and acquaint yourself with the LGAT leader who is determined to convert and convince the unconvertable and unpersuadable. Would such a feat cause your LGAT to stand out from all the others?
Your goal is unattainable simply for the fact that you do not, or cannot address some of the questions and valid arguments that have been thrown at you since your first post.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: Jeri442 ()
Date: October 15, 2007 09:55AM

"This blantant oversimplification of life...and lack of understanding that most of the active posters here are in recovery from LGATs, coupled with your (not) surprising assertation that a group of outside psychologist would conclude we need "help.""

I was involved with PSI Seminars for a few year. I freely admit it caused me to destroy my relationships with family and friends. What "I" wanted was more important. What I lost, as it turned out, was important to me. "ME" as a person; a living, breathing person.

I through away the most important relationship I had; the one with my first husband. At the time PSI told me that since I couldn't get him to attend the seminars "he was holding me back." So I left him behind. This man was my most trusted friend; he was committed to our relationship and I know he loved me more than anything in the world and I still threw that away.

And yes I do need help. Yes I am recovering from the "effects" of PSI. I am seeing a psychologist and this board has help me "see" the mistakes I made with my life because of PSI and the influence it had, and to a certain extent still does. And I see nothing wrong with that. I for one am glad that this board exists. I wished I had checked out PSI before I fell into the trap.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: Vic-Luc ()
Date: October 15, 2007 09:59AM

You guys don't need to be reviewed by an outside board of psychologists. You're like everyone else, if you need a professional to talk to, you do the healthy thing and chose a good provider. You don't look for the packaged miracles or magic beans. You use your support network, online and offline, and take care of yourself.

I love all of you here for the right reasons.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: bubba ()
Date: October 15, 2007 10:16AM

question lady
Isn't that kind of like going to a domestic violence surivors support forum and telling the survivors that what they really need is to have the crap beat out of them?

That depends on your beliefs about the groups labeled "LGATs" here. If you believe that all of them exist only to rob people of their money and willpower, then that's an appropriate analogy. If you don't believe that, then it's more like going to a domestic violence survivors support forum and sharing the experience of men who don't beat women.

Re: This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs
Posted by: midnight8286 ()
Date: October 15, 2007 11:02AM


In regards to your statement:

"This board is PROMINENTLY populated by people who see no need for LGATs (at best,) and those who despise them (at worst),"

I believe you are mistaken.

I do not fall into either of those categories that you believe make up the majority of those who populate this board. I fall into the category of "concerned friend or family member" who is trying to make sense of a loved one's experience with an LGAT in preparation for what's to come. I do not believe that I am necessarily the minority - I (and those like me) am just not as likely to post responses and experiences to this board because I am an observer with no real experiences of my own to share (yet).

This board has been extremely insightful to me and has been very helpful in preparing for the return of my family member who went to an LGAT this past weekend. I started reading this board a month ago when my family member asked me to attend an LGAT with him. This board was the "red flag" that kept me from even listening to the person who convinced my family member to go and who was trying to push me as well. This board ALMOST kept my family member from going, but his "mentor" from work convinced him that no one on this board really "knew what they were talking about."

My family member called me from the "workshop" after the first day of "training" and because of this board, I knew what he was going to tell me before he even got started - so I was one step ahead of him the entire conversation. My family member actually asked, "how did you know that?" several times and admitted that I was obviously learning about his "training" from people who do know a thing or two about it. Of course, he also said that this "training" is really good for him and it's just what he needs to be more productive and happy in life. Ugh!

Boonetahoe, please don't make sweeping generalizations about those who visit and post to this board. That is offensive to people like me who have, in a way, been personally saved by those who have been brave enough to share their experiences in an attempt to help others. To say that, "This Board May Itself be an Argument in Favor of LGATs," is hurtful and offensive to so many people for so many different reasons - and it shouldn't take someone like me, who is probably as neutral as they come on this board, to tell you that. You should inherently know that - and I believe you did know that when you started this post.

To all of you who have taken part in the many posts and threads throughout this board - thank you so much. You have prepared me for what is likely to come very soon in my family life. You have literally given me the knowledge to help my family member get through this and hopefully back to normal sooner rather than later. Without you all - my family would be going into the holiday season with blinders on, having no idea what has happened to our family member who we love dearly.

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