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Jack Oskar Larm

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ON2 LF
One size and one philosophy DOES NOT do the trick.

That's my belief, too. ON2 LF, some really good responses! I think boonetahoe has found something that helps validate his/her journey. That's great, but it's obviously a bad strategy to post pro-LGAT stuff here. Always good to hear 'success' stories.

A very good debate here and its interesting to see the various buttons that can be pushed on either side of this debate. My experience of Landmark Education is not totally negative, you can draw positives from literally every situation in life. I went through a break-up of a long term relationship a stronger person by learning more about myself and challenging my whole perspective on life to become more open to other opinions and ideas.

So do they engender repaired relationships? Sure – I witnessed it happening. Do people come out of it being more expressed and able to work better with others? Sure I saw that happen as well. Is it all about making money from vulnerable people – probably, but there is no conclusive evidence either way and probably never will be unless some government out there decide to look into it. If it is then maybe that’s not wrong either. Sky, Microsoft, Nike are all accused of shady, manipulative and shady dealings, profiteering etc etc.

Here is my personal list of why I am enraged about Landmark (not experienced any others and will never do so). Apologies if I am repeating myself or others

1. The outright hypocrisy of their belief system. For example a statement of “Total care for people’s well being” vs 3am finishes for volunteers. I could go on and list all the others but you are all well informed and know what they are
2. Absolutely no tolerance at all for logical enquiry into that belief system. Its absolutism at its finest and it’s the route to Totalitarianism in every sense.
3. It’s scattergun, borrowed (some would say stolen) Psychology and Philosophy tactics without taking responsibility for the negative or harmful effects it has on some that are well known and documented
4. Its cavalier, arrogant attitude towards its critics, again a basic tenant of their inherent Hypocrisy. “Allow yourself to be coached” it says to its followers. Does it do the same in the other direction from often well meaning contributors? Does it heck!
5. Their fanatical and deeply disturbing tactics for gaining more business, pressuring its customers to be their own sales force using some of the most twisted, bullying, mind games I have ever witnessed (I have seen a few in my own career I can tell you)
6. Their determination to dictate their values on society, their customers and their unpaid workforce through whatever means possible. Example – a checklist to make sure you are living life with Integrity???????? Just f*&ck off! This is control freak mentality gone into a whole new dimension.

There are probably more but I’ll stop there before I ruin my own day.

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Blue Pill

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Jack Oskar Larm

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ON2 LF
One size and one philosophy DOES NOT do the trick.

That's my belief, too. ON2 LF, some really good responses! I think boonetahoe has found something that helps validate his/her journey. That's great, but it's obviously a bad strategy to post pro-LGAT stuff here. Always good to hear 'success' stories.

A very good debate here and its interesting to see the various buttons that can be pushed on either side of this debate. My experience of Landmark Education is not totally negative, you can draw positives from literally every situation in life. I went through a break-up of a long term relationship a stronger person by learning more about myself and challenging my whole perspective on life to become more open to other opinions and ideas.

So do they engender repaired relationships? Sure – I witnessed it happening. Do people come out of it being more expressed and able to work better with others? Sure I saw that happen as well. Is it all about making money from vulnerable people – probably, but there is no conclusive evidence either way and probably never will be unless some government out there decide to look into it. If it is then maybe that’s not wrong either. Sky, Microsoft, Nike are all accused of shady, manipulative and shady dealings, profiteering etc etc.

Here is my personal list of why I am enraged about Landmark (not experienced any others and will never do so). Apologies if I am repeating myself or others

1. The outright hypocrisy of their belief system. For example a statement of “Total care for people’s well being” vs 3am finishes for volunteers. I could go on and list all the others but you are all well informed and know what they are
2. Absolutely no tolerance at all for logical enquiry into that belief system. Its absolutism at its finest and it’s the route to Totalitarianism in every sense.
3. It’s scattergun, borrowed (some would say stolen) Psychology and Philosophy tactics without taking responsibility for the negative or harmful effects it has on some that are well known and documented
4. Its cavalier, arrogant attitude towards its critics, again a basic tenant of their inherent Hypocrisy. “Allow yourself to be coached” it says to its followers. Does it do the same in the other direction from often well meaning contributors? Does it heck!
5. Their fanatical and deeply disturbing tactics for gaining more business, pressuring its customers to be their own sales force using some of the most twisted, bullying, mind games I have ever witnessed (I have seen a few in my own career I can tell you)
6. Their determination to dictate their values on society, their customers and their unpaid workforce through whatever means possible. Example – a checklist to make sure you are living life with Integrity???????? Just f*&ck off! This is control freak mentality gone into a whole new dimension.

There are probably more but I’ll stop there before I ruin my own day.

I definitely see what you mean, and I've experienced the same sort of cult-like thinking in an LGAT.

At the same time, the experiential training model itself isn't inherently flawed with these excesses. It's interesting to read your list and to compare it to the practices of a member-run, non-profit LGAT. Those cult-like aspects of the LGAT are largely (not totally, I'm sure) lost over time when the organization is controlled by a diverse and collaborative board. For many reasons, the exclusive mentality becomes far more sober and inclusive.

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At the same time, the experiential training model itself isn't inherently flawed with these excesses. It's interesting to read your list and to compare it to the practices of a member-run, non-profit LGAT. Those cult-like aspects of the LGAT are largely (not totally, I'm sure) lost over time when the organization is controlled by a diverse and collaborative board. For many reasons, the exclusive mentality becomes far more sober and inclusive.

The surest training model is one devoid of any agenda, any over arching philosophy, and functions outside every context associated with an LGAT. That training model would, again, be the one that is [i:fd6b2bc9e4]life[/i:fd6b2bc9e4] and everyday living, and all that these two components have to offer. No tweaks, no manipulations, no pressures to gain insights deemed valuable by others, no regimented approach, just life. Good old fashioned life and the will to be a good and kind person who doesn't mind taking the long road to get to where the road eventually leads.
Anytime the natural process of experiencing life proves difficult, hindered in some way, or simply cannot be achieved due to illness, socioeconomics, handicaps etc.., that is when one needs to see a professional and try to access help through legitimate organizations.

An LGAT exists only on the precept of having something 'unique' to offer, this precept is serious flawed on too many levels for me to think of LGATs as legitimate contenders in the world of mental, emotional, or spiritual health services.

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boonetahoe
Here is my personal list of why I am enraged about Landmark (not experienced any others and will never do so). Apologies if I am repeating myself or others

1. The outright hypocrisy of their belief system. For example a statement of “Total care for people’s well being” vs 3am finishes for volunteers. I could go on and list all the others but you are all well informed and know what they are
2. Absolutely no tolerance at all for logical enquiry into that belief system. Its absolutism at its finest and it’s the route to Totalitarianism in every sense.
3. It’s scattergun, borrowed (some would say stolen) Psychology and Philosophy tactics without taking responsibility for the negative or harmful effects it has on some that are well known and documented
4. Its cavalier, arrogant attitude towards its critics, again a basic tenant of their inherent Hypocrisy. “Allow yourself to be coached” it says to its followers. Does it do the same in the other direction from often well meaning contributors? Does it heck!
5. Their fanatical and deeply disturbing tactics for gaining more business, pressuring its customers to be their own sales force using some of the most twisted, bullying, mind games I have ever witnessed (I have seen a few in my own career I can tell you)
6. Their determination to dictate their values on society, their customers and their unpaid workforce through whatever means possible. Example – a checklist to make sure you are living life with Integrity???????? Just f*&ck off! This is control freak mentality gone into a whole new dimension.

There are probably more but I’ll stop there before I ruin my own day.

I definitely see what you mean, and I've experienced the same sort of cult-like thinking in an LGAT.

At the same time, the experiential training model itself isn't inherently flawed with these excesses.[/quote]

I shared Blue Pills experience a 100%, I have quite a few friends who were or are still involved in Landmark Education. I am also enraged and cynical about Landmark. LGAT training IS flawed ... no research no foundations, no proper empirical tests about results. In my opinion, people frequently lie to themselves that the training had a positive impact. Part of the extensive brain-washing is that people are constantly programmed to share positive experiences in a course. I have a Landmark friend who says now after nine years of being a Landmark coach: "it does not work ... tell me where it works, and people don't want it."

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The first est Training took place at the Jack Tar Hotel in San Francisco, California in October 1971. From this first course, as word of mouth about this powerful and life-changing 'experience-centered' workshop began to circulate, more and more people wanted to sign up, and est began to grow rapidly.

this quote is from wikipedia about the EST training ...

from inside Landmark, this is such a complete lie (therefore written by a Landmarkian) ... people are CONSTANTLY ongoingly told for hours to invite other people

I did not start following this thread until today and am late responding to this outrageous post from Boonetahoe.

On October 7th he wrote:

>>boonetahoe
Date Added: 10/07/2007

1. It would be a clearly defined NOT FOR PROFIT financial structure. No dividends, no shady financial structures. Accounts would be posted in black and white on the company website every quarter for all to see. Investment in developing the business is fine as long as it is in line with the non profit structure.
2. The board to be from accountable, professionally trained areas in appropriate backgrounds (eg – Psychology, Philosophy etc)
3. The founder(s) is (are) not the subject of significant allegations of legal or personal malfeasance
4. Its objective would be human happiness and fulfilment, tolerance for all faiths and belief systems"


Just for the sake of information, the Great Life Foundation in Salt Lake City has been operating for the last three years under this basis. <<


>>Great Life Foundation in Salt Lake City has been operating for the last three years under this basis<<

1) There are no accounts posted in black and white on the GLF website. You lied. Care to share how much outside money has been poured into this company to keep it going? Care to post your books here, or give us a link to verify they are clean? To see what your "trainers" are paid?

>>Great Life Foundation in Salt Lake City has been operating for the last three years under this basis<<

2) Your board is mostly made up of former Impact grads. Their names are not on your website, but members in the past included the Looneys and a bunch of other Impact grads. Who are the professionals? Can we call them and ask for a reference to this training?

>>Great Life Foundation in Salt Lake City has been operating for the last three years under this basis<<

3) Steve Juback, who in the 2001 to 2004 time frame claimed he "owned" Harmony (or that his family owned it) has/had an IRS judgement that prevents his from owning a business, lest it be seized, or earning income lest it be garnished, so you pay his wife and daughter while he "works for free." This is integrity? Pam was the sole "owner" of Harmony. That's how you locked Hans and Sally out.


I just find your claims above to be so dishonest as to be nearly unbelievable. What is your purpose here other than spreading lies like the ones above?

You seem to have a need to justify the value of your own experience by so distorting reality as to be apparently psychotic. I urge you to find a competent therapist (HINT: They are not likely to be the ones on your board, or recent graduates.)

If you are the poster-child for the results of these trainings, then they are even more destructive than I had thought.

RICK -- it's time to review whether this guy has violated the agreements (ground rules) for being able to post here.

------ED

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ON2 LF
I probably need to just admit that I did not know her as well as I thought I did.

I've had this same thought about a close, trusted friend of 15 years who got into a cultic relationship (after going through CONtext) and then turned against me. I have been totally baffled by it, for about five years now, thinking that I really didn't know him. Just recently I thought about it differently. I think I did know him and that his personality change is due to the power and control of a master manipulator. Same thing lgats do to people.

All good stuff here. LONG LIVE THE SPIRIT OF THE DEBATE! The above lists by MartinH and Impacted are good blueprints to use in any type of relationship, especially with a 'training' institute. I personally don't care if it's Landmark, a church, a school or club - all I ask from any of these organisations is accountability. Isn't that the basic assumption we must all live by? Without this accountability there is too much scope for corruption and abuse. I don't think there is any alternative to this basic requirement. I suppose the irony of LGATs like Landmark is that their aim is to be in control and take the power away from the little people while pretending to empower and enlighten. Landmark, just answer the bloody questions! They're not difficult, are they?

It would also be nice to have a postal address for Herr Rosenberg, so I can send him a 'Get Well Soon' card or the like ...

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skeptic

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ON2 LF
I probably need to just admit that I did not know her as well as I thought I did.

I've had this same thought about a close, trusted friend of 15 years who got into a cultic relationship (after going through CONtext) and then turned against me. I have been totally baffled by it, for about five years now, thinking that I really didn't know him. Just recently I thought about it differently. I think I did know him and that his personality change is due to the power and control of a master manipulator. Same thing lgats do to people.

I've thought of that as a cause for the behavior, but still struggle with the idea of whether there was ever a genuine friendship there. Bullshit isn't always powerful enough to pit a friend against another. I think I over estimated my friend's loyalty to me. I over estimated the quality of the friendship. I can only use my own idea of what being a friend is, to measure by. I think I took the friendship a bit more seriously than my friend did. If not, I wouldn't still be tossing the issue back and forth while my lost friend continues on her merry way, without ever once having given a thought to her unfair and calculating behaviors, once landmark reinfected her mind. A genuine feeling shouldn't be that easy to brush away, it was just that easy for my friend. I still have some contact with this person but I no longer wear my heart on my sleeve in our communications, and I no longer expect or look for sincerity or real emotion from her. Manipulation is indeed powerful in the forms used by cults, but that manipulation has to override the person's heart as well, not just their mind. I think a certain amount of accountability can be placed on the person who would hurt others for the sake of gratifying a desire which is first sparked in the mind. Many times have I been in situations where I've had to ask myself, "how can something that feels so right, be so wrong"? Even when caught up in a situation where logically a thing can seem so right, I can still feel, spiritually or intuitively, when it is actually wrong. That is where accountability remains a force to be reckoned with, and that seems to be where the extremely deceptive cults attack a person the hardest, often successfully, at the conscience level. Maybe I'm being too cynical or maybe I'm just really pissed off that one big elaborate lie could seem like a better offer than the friendship I had to give.
Some may think I had just as cheap a friendship to offer as was offered by her cult, but if it was that cheap, it should have cost a lot less in time and heartbreak.
Either way, at this time, I know I'm not the friend I was before. I've lost the desire to be loyal, or to look forward to spending time with her, or to just hang out for no apparent purpose. I've lost the trust, and along with it the committment. If just one small ray of hope were to show itself in this situation, I'd step right back onto the plate, but that's not going to happen. Landmark's got something I can't give as a friend, escape from reality. Which still baffles me, where else is a better place to be than in reality? When did reality begin to get such a raw deal anyway?

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ON2 LF
... whether there was ever a genuine friendship there. Bullshit isn't always powerful enough to pit a friend against another. I think I over estimated my friend's loyalty to me. I over estimated the quality of the friendship. I can only use my own idea of what being a friend is, to measure by. I think I took the friendship a bit more seriously than my friend did. If not, I wouldn't still be tossing the issue back and forth while my lost friend continues on her merry way, without ever once having given a thought to her unfair and calculating behaviors, once landmark reinfected her mind. ... When did reality begin to get such a raw deal anyway?

I think all cults chant the mantra, 'It's us or them. You decide.' I suspect there's nothing wrong with your ability to have real friendships. Obviously you're coming from a fairly balanced and rational view point and you're having to deal with the manipulations of this cult. I've had the experience (past tense) of close family members becoming more distant, guarded, confused. Luckily, from my point of view, they survived and our relationship actually got stronger, partly because I was there for them if and when they chose to return to reality. Now, for reality ... I think that's a tough one because it can surely be a very ugly and overly demanding thing. On one hand, the world is a painfully messed up place, but on the other hand, there is nothing as sweet and beautiful. I think it's about accepting the whole gamut of what it is to be in reality. Obviously, many of us take a break from reality when we have a few too many drinks at the BBQ or when we allow our immaturity to lock us away with our depression and our utter confusion (there are many other 'positive' ways to escape, i.e. through self-expression).

Reality surely is a fickle beast - I might believe firmly in some thing or notion and by the close of day I may have completely changed my beliefs. This happens all the time when I get hooked by the utter lunacy and deceit of the commercial news channels, for instance. But I think that's OK because how else do we calibrate our Bullshit Meter? I mean, a little pain and suffering is a grand way to appreciate happiness and bliss. Obviously, I don't want anyone to suffer, but you'd have to live on another planet not to expect a little suffering along the way (I've never experienced otherwise).

I'm babbling now. I think I know how you feel ON2 LF. But I think I can confidently say that there is little wrong in how you evaluate your friendships - and what you expect of them!