Can someone refresh my memory? I rememer the pie chart used at the beginning of the Forum that included the section, "What you don't know you don't know", and it was about the unconscious and how most people operate on unconscious "thought". I don't recall the FL really getting into this (might have been my FL).

As I go through life and what I don't know I don't know is revealed to me through healthy relationships, even unhealthy relationships, I see what a complete mind-f*ck LE is, especially since we don't know what we don't know (but I guess they know what we don't know we don't know).

Everything I recall from LF was about things people are aware of. Self-flagellation was applauded, especially admitting to running a racket. But, even if someone was running a racket, that is not something that is in the unconscious, at least as far as a LF weekend is concerned. I'm not sure I'm being clear but if someone wants to take a stab at how the WYKYDK manipulation was carried out, please inform me. Thanks.

Here is the exact transcript which someone has on their own "natural healing" website...


"There is this phenomenon in life about learning more. As if that is going to help make things better. But it doesn’t. If knowing made a difference for most, then why would anyone be overweight? Who doesn’t know how to lose weight?

The reason it doesn’t work is because our blind spots, or unconscious mind are what drives us when we are not consciously remembering to use our willpower.

There is stuff in life we know, and we know that we know it. Like you know:

Your name
How to drive a car
How to read
How to walk
And these are all things that you know you know.

Then there is what we know that we don’t know. Like:
I know that I don’t know how to speak Chinese
I know that I don’t know how to fly an airplane

There are a lot of things (probably way more than I even know) that I know I don’t’ know. And if I want, I can go learn these things and make them part of the what I know that I know category.

But doing this, moving things from what we know we don’t know (by learning them) to the category of what we know we know, isn’t much help when it comes to our unconscious actions.

You see, there is this whole other category that is
What you don’t know and you don’t know you don’t know it.

Tell me one thing that you don’t know you don’t know?

It is impossible. Because you don’t know that you don’t know. If you tell me about it, the thing is automatically in the category or what you know, you don’t know.

This is what makes up most of what is running our life. These are the blind spots that insights and enlightenment happen from. These are the life changing ‘aha’s” that people have and alter their life in the moment forever.

And asking questions of yourself (and answering them) is a great access into these things that you don’t know you don’t know.

www.landmarkeducation.com offers a 3 day seminar called the Landmark Forum. And this is a great place to go to find all the things in life holding you back. All the things you don’t know that you don’t know. "

Here is the original message board thread, with the pie chart :
[board.culteducation.com]

And here is a recent blog post on the same topic :
[lgattruth.wordpress.com]

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Hope
Here is the exact transcript which someone has on their own "natural healing" website... "

Wow, I just had a flashback as this is pretty much lifted verbatim from the mandatory text that Landmark introduction leaders are trained to recite.

I now know that there's another area that they conveniently ignore - what you don't know that you know. Like how to trust your instincts and detect a scam when you see it...

Since this stuff is still relatively fresh in my memory I'll take a run at it...

First of all the whole topic of "What you don't know you don't know" gets covered in much greater detail in the Landmark Forum in Action Seminar, which is basically 10 weeks of disecting the Landmark Forum. Imagine 10 weeks of indoctination once a week for 3 hours a night! The Forum is basically explained in the Seminar and topics like "What you don't know you don't know" get beat to death through on going dialog in the class between the students, instructor, and fellow students.

What it boils down to is this....There are things you don't know (about yourself) that you don't know. Which is always how you interact with people or life situations. They are basically different types of habits that you have. But you never really notice them...So you don't know about them! According to Landmark these things (habits) interfere with you being successful. Something happens and you have a negative reaction.

What you do is find a sticking point that you have. Something simple to start with and you go back and start looking at when and where you first started acting that way. But since you can't really recall it quickly you basically "don't know" that it exists. Once you discover this thing about yourself that you didn't know you bring it out into the open and adress it, but in a Landmark manner. I.E. you've know cracked open you brain and it's vulnerable, so now is the time to start inserting the Landmark brainwashing program and let yourself be open to all sorts of psychological trauma.

It's during these sessions where your crap gets aired out in an uncontrolled psychological environment. If it's something simple like you avoid Tequila because one time you drank Tequila because you got really sick on it and puked your guts out. Then you might not be as apt to get jacked emotionally. But now on the other hand you had a very traumatic experience that went along with it, such as you were raped repeatedly while drunk on Tequila and you associate Tequila with violent sex acts and you get creeped out by the sight of it, then you have just now opened yourself up to a whole other realm where you can be manipulated by Landmark and left in a traumatized state. Not to mention members of the class may also get some collateral traumatization.

This whole "What you don't know you don't know" seems very dangerous to me in retrospect. Because your basically taking away part of your own programming and inserting Landmarks programming!

Thanks Zorro. I only really remembered the WYDKYDK from the very beginning of the Forum and didn't recall how they applied this "conversation" throughout the rest of the three days. I only attended a couple of the seminar series after the forum. Most of the people in my forum either didn't go at all or dropped out after two or three sessions. They were boring and very, very heavy on selling other seminars.

The thing about WYDKYDK, for anyone thinking about attending the Forum, is that this kind of stuff does not "come out" in a three day weekend. The reason why I posted this thread is because what I do recall from the Forum on this topic can hardly be labeled WYKDYDK. What they touch on involves a certain amount of awareness about people's issues. WYKWDK goes a lot deeper thatn anything LE staff could uncover.

Zorro, you are correct, however, in saying that this application is dangerous, especially in a setting where there are no mental health professionals, a lot of sharing of traumatic events (its all coming back to me now) and insertion of Landmarkian ideas that cause the opposite of healing - suppression, dissociation and even re-traumatization.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

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Zorro
This whole "What you don't know you don't know" seems very dangerous to me in retrospect.

I would even say criminal ...

It's just plain stupid, really. Yeah, dangerous like acid to a sponge, but given two minutes of 'time out' to think about it and you see it's just plain ridiculous. What I don't know? Fine, but just don't sell me anything.

Smoke and mirrors. Landmark is a circus. If you look into 'their' eyes long enough you can forget to question a lot more than this ridiculous, loopy statement. 'What I don't know, I don't know' Leave it at that, then. Who knows what I'm might discover along the way ... it's always worked out fine before ... what, you got a better way? How much??

Snake oil. Landmark is a wirey old man on the back of a wagon selling tainted water as a miracle potion. Simple. Read the label and discover all the numbers, ie preservative this, preservative that; artificial, regurgitated and smells like an old man's fart ...

There is a phrase recited at the end of Codependant's Anonymous meeting
which goes,

'The pain of knowing (what we have been through) cannot be any worse than the pain of knowing and not remembering."

It is possible to repress recognition of trauma yet still be affected by distress--the grey meatball between the ears can be tricked and bamboozled into believing that abuse equals love.

But the fight/flight mechanism can still silently generate physical tension, creating a discrepancy between tension in our bodies and a mind that is tricked into denying the tension.

The result is crazy making.

I say this because all through childhood I was haunted by something just out of reach. I had a feeling something important was going on, and that I was too stupid to know what it was. I thought I was crazy. I had dreams that made no sense.

Three months ago, for the first time, I began reading family letters and obtained copies of my parent's marriage certificate.

It turned out that many, many secrets were kept from me. The documents spoke for themselves.

I did not consciously 'know' what was going on. My brain didnt have the necessary information.

But..at the non verbal level I intuited that I was living with people who were keeping secrets.

And...I intuited correctly.

In the absence of validating information, I thought I was nuts.

Turns out I lived among adults too frighted to tell the truth--meaning they were not capable of being adults in the full sense.

This is the kind of thing LGATs never take into account.

We can indeed by affected by stuff that we intuit at the nonverbal level but just do not know at the conscious level.

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Jack Oskar Larm
It's just plain stupid, really.
Smoke and mirrors. Landmark is a circus. If you look into 'their' eyes long enough you can forget to question a lot more than this ridiculous, loopy statement.

it does not work, and people don't need something like that at all and people don't really want it. Somebody invented the first car or mobile phone, it works and people want it and it quickly spreads over the planet.
Werner and others invented Landmark, it just does not work, it is simple and stupid stuff, people don't want it, only some fall for it for a relatively short period of time if they are seduced ...