Hello everybody,
I am new to this site, as you can probably tell. I am a self-employed, white upper-middle class professional in his late 20's with a shy disposition and tendency to be "soft" in bargaining. I'm keeping this vague, if to a level of sounding pretentious (which I apologize for), for a reason.
Less than a week ago, at a meeting of my local chapter of PCA (Porsche Club of America - no, I'm not a snob, I swear), one of our most distinguished members engaged me in a conversation about my poor bargaining skills, among other issues (self esteem being a primary focus). This gentleman is an older man who has achieved astounding success in the fragrance industry and owns a very large company . In fact, I would bet most of us here have some of his company's products in their house. Suffice to say, he's loaded beyond belief.
This gentleman and I have discussed business philosophy in the past, but I interpreted this recent development as him wanting to warm up to me, perhaps mentor me, as he is more than double my age.
He had mentioned the Landmark Forum ever since I disclosed to himn that I lack confidence in certain situations, even mentioning that he was a leader. I had initially thought it was an HR training program - perhaps a retreat out to the country where we play some "trust" exercises. Thankfully, I never found out what it fully entailed firsthand.
On the morning of the day I had scheduled to attend the "introduction" with him, I decided to look up some reviews of the program, largely expecting the banal "it was fun and invigorating, but largely unfulfilling." Landmark's own website was extremely vague, almost to an eerie extent - so I decided to look up specific criticisms. Suffice to say, I ended up on culteducation.com within seconds. What I found was downright frightening. Looking back on it, the aforementioned gentleman proudly boasted how his entire personal "team" has attended Landmark for years now - even how he took other local PCA members to the "forum".
I'm shocked and at a loss. I would have posted this sooner, but I needed to get out and see the world to renew my faith in humanity, even if it was lost for a few fleeting moments. I fully admit to being weak-willed...one can only imagined what they would have done to me had I signed up. In hindisight, I thought it was a bit odd for him to say "it will change your way of thinking...make sure to bring a form of payment for when you decide to sign up...if you decide to...but I'm sure you will." (pretty much the exact quote)
I still feel somewhat shocked and betrayed. I suppose I'm not asking for any particular help - just an outlet to get my feelings out to a group of people who understands this phenomenon far better than myself. Reading through your experiences instantly made me feel somewhat better.
Thank you, and good luck to all who have experienced, and are experiencing, things that I might have laid sight to firsthand had I gone.
Sincerely,
a very stupid pseudonym, but it was all I could come up with, given what I had been drinking with dinner
"whisky" - the scotch malt type

Just glad you didn't get sucked in!

Hmm....some Glenfiddich sounds good about now...

-valerie

Whiskey,

Welcome to the site and I'm so glad the writings here helped you.

It's normal to feel shocked and betrayed when you realize that the intent was not to help but to recruit you. You were very wise to research and make your decision based on your findings and solid critical thinking.

According to Robert Cialdini's Influence

[www.culteducation.com] you managed to escape common triggers that get people to do things - especially this man's perceived success.

If you haven't done so, you can read more by going to the end of the forum home pagem far right, menu choice to show threads "from the beginning". There you can find threads on LGATS that go way back.

Have you seen this man again since you decided not to attend the introductory night? How did it go?

Hi Whisky,

I was conversing with a Landmark person last week. He accused me of being "powerless" because he saw writing about LE on the web was lame - why not attack LE front on and put them out of business, he said...

My answer to him was that if I or we, (good intentioned people writing the truth to save others from LE), can save one person, then, that is worthwhile. Each person on earth is a precious human being and each person's most prised posession is their free will. LE strips people of their free will and identity. Many psychotic breaks, relationship breakups and even suicide is attributed to the psychological manipulation done by this group.

Whisky - the people who have written about LE on this discussion forum would be proud that they have provided you with enough information for you to exercise your free will and not attend Landmark Forum. This is a win for you and a win for all your friends and family and loved ones and all who will meet you in the future. Unfortunately, I discovered this site too late before I could save my loved one from this incidious org.

Oz

I'm truly humbled - you people are great.
I was having lunch with a client today (beautiful weather - for a change!), and mentioned my experience with Landmark. We had never quite hit it off properly before, but that all changed. He described to me in full detail a retreat that he took with other Landmark members - which he met through an ex girlfriend who was heavily involved in the program - in the Catskills (or Poconos?). In his words: "I was expecting to go up there..do some fishing..drink some beer, smoke some pot...sing some songs...but it was run more like a concentration camp. We woke up early, did everything together...and when the meetings started...you couldn't be late. It didn't feel like much of a retreat!"
To think, bonding over Landmark with one of my most apprehensive clients. Ironically, I've seen an improvement in my confidence by facing up to my experience and talking about it with others! Landmark really did help ;)
As for the gentleman who initially tried to "recruit" me; I've largely avoided him since the incident - not returning any of his calls and acting as if I dropped off the face of the earth. Looking back on it even more, especially after having read some more posts on this forum, I can safely say that he was using another approach to get me to enroll:
I've often admired his most treasured Porsche (among a collection of 30 or so), it's one of the rarest ever made, and is next to impossible to come by in the United States. I've joked with him more than once that if business gets better for me, I'd make him an offer. In so few words, he more or less suggested that he knew "the right people" to help me expand my business, and could ultimately help me find "the right strategy"; maybe I'd be able to get it "sooner than I thought"...all if I attended landmark and simply "trusted" him. The carrot and stick approach...
I'll keep you updated on any new developments. Thank you for your wonderful encouragement.
Mmmm...Glenfiddich :)

Well, if you can resist that person's recruitment, you are a very strong individual. That guy sounds like he could be recruiting an amazing amount of people, due to his wealth and status and aggressiveness. (People figure if you APPEAR to be rich, then you must know what you are talking about).
That guy could very well have "sociopathic" tendencies. Many folks who are successful in business have those traits, as they are able to simply USE people to get what they want. His blatant pitch to you sounds almost totally ruthless. He sounds like a perfect match for Landmark. Maybe he loves Landmark as it provides tools and rationalizations for him to do whatever he wants to people no matter the cost to them. Maybe he will start running his local Landmark franchise!! Maybe he is?

I have found with folks who are really smart and ruthless, if you can show them you know what they are doing and why, they will often STOP, and either be your friend, (equal), or just leave you alone.
If it were me, i would engage that person in an intense discussion about what EXACTLY Landmark does, its history, Werner Blowhard, who owns it, where the money goes, and all of Landmarks SPECIFIC techniques they use on people, and also the philosophical assumptions being sold. I would be able to tell right away if that person was a victim, or a predator. If you are knowledgeable enough about it, you can have a very strong impact on people, but sometimes they can turn on you very aggressively. Its a VERY fine line to walk.
I do NOT recommend you do this though.

Use this an an opportunity to train yourself to see through other peoples manipulations. Landmark isn't the only group out there trying to get our money and minds!

Coz

Quote
whisky
As for the gentleman who initially tried to "recruit" me; I've largely avoided him since the incident - not returning any of his calls and acting as if I dropped off the face of the earth. Looking back on it even more, especially after having read some more posts on this forum, I can safely say that he was using another approach to get me to enroll:
I've often admired his most treasured Porsche (among a collection of 30 or so), it's one of the rarest ever made, and is next to impossible to come by in the United States. I've joked with him more than once that if business gets better for me, I'd make him an offer. In so few words, he more or less suggested that he knew "the right people" to help me expand my business, and could ultimately help me find "the right strategy"; maybe I'd be able to get it "sooner than I thought"...all if I attended landmark and simply "trusted" him. The carrot and stick approach...
I'll keep you updated on any new developments. Thank you for your wonderful encouragement.
Mmmm...Glenfiddich :)

Interesting dilemma. Keep us posted.

You are lucky you had the wherewithal to do a little research. Landmark has been able to fly under the radar, so to speak, but it has roots and parallels to some really creepy groups and "ideologies." Lots of people don't, and for any of a number of reasons "fall" for the pitch which is tailored to appeal to your worst fears about yourself and your highest aspirations for your life. The seduction has been worked out over decades and they are pretty good at it. Most of us are not so rude as to walk away when someone is speaking to us.

Mostly, Landmark, and groups like Landmark love people of prestige and influence who will bring in more people. It's all about image; that is the illusion of success, power, high status, and happiness and how to project that image so that others are drawn to you and want to know how you do what you do. Watch out for the piercing stare directly into your eyes and amped-up smiles. These are tactics.

One of the not-so-subtle ways people are inducted into Landmark is through identification with the leaders. The world is full of people looking for a "leader," a mentor, a father-figure. The leaders are groomed to fit this fantasy. They spend hours and hours in front of the mirror perfecting their "look," their appeal, their delivery.

You would do far better getting the kind of thing Landmark pretends to offer through conventional routes; Dale Carnegie, Toastmasters, some type of brief "Cognitive Therapy," or your local library or community college. Whatever legitimate content they do have is culled from ordinary sources. The pretense of having higher, secret, or mystical or philosophical connections are just that; pretense, or window dressing.

I would be tempted to play along with this guy, out of curiousity. As Cos points out, you can pretty easily determine whether he is deluded himself and actually believes the cr*pola or is a true predator and knows exactly what he is doing. GC or Guy could come up with a couple of key questions that would point to one or the other, I bet. The true predators are ice-cold sociopaths but they can be as slick and as polished as any actor and appear as warm and as caring as your best friend. One thing that distinguishes them is the trail of victims they inevitably leave. They love earnest, ambitious, sincere, intelligent, healthy hard-working people who will perform for them and increase their wealth. They are looking for people they can USE. (Going with what you've posted, my bet would be that he is a predator who has found good hunting grounds in the PCA with lots of upwardly mobile, hard-driving, aggressive and ambitious types who are probably riven with insecurities, lonliness, and immaturity. Good potential for $$$.)


Ellen

"Mostly, Landmark, and groups like Landmark love people of prestige and influence who will bring in more people. It's all about image; that is the illusion of success, power, high status, and happiness and how to project that image so that others are drawn to you and want to know how you do what you do. Watch out for the piercing stare directly into your eyes and amped-up smiles. These are tactics. "

The part about the stare is downright frightening! This is exactly what he has done. If he catches my eye among a crowd (if we're at the track or something), he'll give me this piercing stare, then turn on this brief smile. When we're talking, he'll often ask me "Do I want to make more money, am I afraid to? Do I want to commit myself [to my business]?" It almost comes across as being condescending, as some of my friends who have met him pointed out.

Thank you for the insight, as always :)

Gee....maybe I should go back to Landmark so I can be like Mr. Thirty Porsches.
Afterall life is about whoever has the most toys or whatever wins.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sorry...dark humour leaking out....:eek: :eek: :eek:

Guy

"Gee....maybe I should go back to Landmark so I can be like Mr. Thirty Porsches.
Afterall life is about whoever has the most toys or whatever wins."

Yet, so many people think this way. I have a relatively new Porsche Carrera, which I treat with the greatest of care. For me, it's just a fun toy which helps me enjoy long drives on nice days (driving is a requirement of what I do), but certainly not the focus of my life. I work extremely hard, and feel that I more than earned it. The fact that this guy is promising people that they can "make more money" in order to accumulate their own collection of cars/etc. is pretty lame. Treat yourself if you want to and are able to, but don't do it for the sake of doing it; doesn't sound like ethics or integrity to me - just somebody playing on some people's inborn narcissitic need to show off.