letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
Zorro
()
Date: September 17, 2007 11:16AM
Quote
The Shadow
I would like to know a little more about this. Specifically when you tracked back to the Advanced Course.
The Advanced Course had the biggest single impact upon me. But I can go all the way back to the Forum.
What I did was I just started looking for something that would have caused a dramatic change in me. The Advanced course is f**king intense. Very few people will come out of that thing unscathed.
Landmark really builds up the Advanced Course and they tell you that when you leave you wont be the same person that walked in. They are right about that! I think the Advanced Course will impact people much more than the Forum can.
Many people leave the Forum wondering what the heck it was all about and don't really understand it. When you leave the Advanced Course you know for sure something has happened and you understand it. Mainly because in the Advanced Course you get to create the person you want to be (of course under the direct influence of Landmark!) The scary part about the Advanced course is you get to find your weak point, or in my case told what my weak point was. After that it will be used on you by both the instructors and your fellow class mates.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: September 17, 2007 11:24AM
Quote
A great way to assist people to make informed choices about what kinds of
projects to get involved with--and stay well away from--is to get the public to understand that quality sleep is as important as good nutrition and exercise, and that sleep deprivation can do everything from compromise health to triggering manic episodes in persons who have inherited a genetic vulnerability to bipolar affective disorder.
So, even the forum leaders in a typical forum are on the brink of an episode? Its scary to think that most of the people I have been making aware of landmark and its tactics are people who live on sleep deprivation and high stress. Its just the kind of work some of them do, and the demands their work places on them are great. It would make sense how much easier it is for lekkies to latch onto people that live these types of schedules.
Thanks corboy! (you can bet there's gonna be a new wave of information cluttering up alot of people's e-mail...)
P.S. Are there any stats out there pertaining to the differences in vulnerability to brainwashing between insomniacs and non-insomniacs?
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
spoony
()
Date: September 17, 2007 03:47PM
Quote
ON2 LF
So, even the forum leaders in a typical forum are on the brink of an episode?
I think they are aware of this - I noticed a number of LF leaders who would arrive with their own mattresses to catch some sleep during the breaks in the courses.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
The Shadow
()
Date: September 17, 2007 05:27PM
Quote
". She is going to need a support system. She is going through a lot: She's broke, she's lost her boyfriend, and she has been hoodwinked.[/quote
Hi Zorro,
yep, too true, and yes, she does have other friends who are not interested in Landmark...so that is helpful...I am just not sure how much Landmark still have over her...but I guess time will tell, and all we can do is help the best way we can.
Thanks for the continued information...it is sure helpful.
regards,
'shad'
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
Zorro
()
Date: September 17, 2007 09:05PM
Quote
spoony
I think they are aware of this - I noticed a number of LF leaders who would arrive with their own mattresses to catch some sleep during the breaks in the courses.
:shock: That's down right freaky! Sounds like they are already over the edge.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 17, 2007 11:29PM
Intersted readers are invited (nudge, nudge shove!) to read this thread on room set ups.
Former LGAT subjects gave valuable obsevations.
And others showed a peculiar and most revealing fury that the message board community was giving such scrutiny to room set up--as if we were getting too close to something that others wished would remain hidden.
But it is not only room set up. We need to take a close look at sleep deprivation.
It isnt just LGATs that make it hard to pay attention to this. American culture has a macho attitude that devalues sleep, making it seem optional, an indulgence for weaklings.
But medicine and science and case reports from the world of mental health are showing us that health and sanity suffer when we go short on sleep.
Here is the thread on room set up
[board.culteducation.com]
Closely examine the Kopp paper on room set up. THe author suggests
it works by eliciting covert resistance in LGAT participants.
[www.u.arizona.edu]
But despite the author's experience as a volunteer who did room set up, andt hough he recognizes the power of room set up (bunching people close together elbow to elbow might be subtle stress posture because most Westerners prefer to sit, stand and socialize at a greater boundary distance and get nervous if someone stands too close(Page 22-23)
Page 13, Kopp draws attention to the set ups elimination of physical distraction via a subtle and sophisticated room set up protocol.
Page 19--the seminar room is well lit, with florescent lights.
Page 29to 30 The author describes the remarkable lengths taken to
ensure there is zero distraction from what the speaker is doing. He
asserted care is taken to ensure that not even door hinges squeak and
that volunteers make no sudden or distracting movements.
Page 32--author claims efforts are made to regulate the tempreture of the room and that even a dozing participant is listed as one of the things to be managed.
But the author, perhaps because his area of interest was cultural studies and not medicine or physiology, never seems to have wondered whether sleep deprivation/circadian rhythm disruption could be one of the secret ingredients.
What is happening to people's circadian rhythms?
I only became interested in sleep issues I have known of three persons who had bipolar and whose manic swings were triggered when they failed to get enough sleep. In one case the outcome was tragic.
Here is another article on circadian rhythm and bipolar. This man states he had had persons with mania who stabilized if allowed to stay in the dark.
[www.psycheducation.org]
Even with his great insights, Kopp does not appear to have noticed the possible impact of stress plus subtle of sleep deprivation
or the impact of causing the participants to spend most of the day indoors in a room set up cut of from the shifting patterns of sunlight and dark which are turning out to be important in regulating the human body's circadian rhythm.
The lesson here is that we are not autonomous atoms.
We are networked into the rhythms of light and darkness. Health is affected by this.
Persons with bipolar appear exquisitely tied to the rhythms of light and darkness.
People do get breaks during the LGAT described by Kopp, but though there might be time to leave the building and get meals, this might not be enough to enable person with bipolar disorder to maintain sufficient exposure to natural shifts of sunshine and darkness to retain stability.
A social worker who is familiar with the needs of persons with bipolar told me that not only must persons with bipolar get 8 hours of quality sleep a night, every night, even weekends. But..she told me that to maintain stablity and prevent manic swings, that person must get the eight hours and wake up at sun rise. If the person got 8 good hours of sleep yet woke up prior to sunrise, those pre-dawn awakenings were often enough to triger manic epsidoes--even when that person otherwise got 8 hours of sleep!
And we are profoundly affected by physical and social context, yet are given misleading information by both culture and LGAT indoctrination that we are totally autonomous and make our own reality, while being led to ignore the extent to which we are affected by our own bodies, and room set ups and social interactions. It upsets cherished notions of ourselves and our cherished myth of total autonomy to face that we need to be in contact with the changes of light and darkness produced by Mother Nature and the 4 season, or we become de-stabilized.
And some of us have such sensitivity that we must go to very special lengths to protect sleep. A key question is to know IN ADVANCE if some person or project is going to keep us up past our bed time.
Persons genetically susceptible to bipolar affective disorder have to know this so as to protect their sleep patterns by avoiding certain situations, or they can trigger a manic swing.
This is not for lack of will power. It is biochemistry. It is a tragedy that American culture makes it a point of pride to devalue sleep and not get enough of it.
WE CANNOT FULFILL FULL HEALTH AND PSYCHOEMOTIONAL POTENTIAL UNLESS ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN GET SHELTER, NUTRITION, SLEEP, COMMUNITY, LEARNING, WORK AND PLAY
If any one of these is missing, we cannot be fully ourselves.
We are learning to avoid hydrogenated fats when shopping for food and pondering menu options in restaurants.
It is time to be just as intentional to protect our sleep patterns and refuse to participate in anything that stresses us and keeps us past our bedtime.
Anything or anyone who devalues this is something or someone to be avoided, just as if to say, 'Hey, Crisco is good for you.'
(Note--there may be other LGAT set ups that do take place outdoors. Participants may get exposure to natural changes in sunshine and dark.
Yet..if these LGATs keep people from being able to sleep as much as their bodies require and/or cause people to get up before dawn, and especially if these also inflict stress, regression and shame, this will still be likely to destablize someone who has a sensitive biochemistry or genetic predisposition to bipolar.
Former LGAT subjects gave valuable obsevations.
And others showed a peculiar and most revealing fury that the message board community was giving such scrutiny to room set up--as if we were getting too close to something that others wished would remain hidden.
But it is not only room set up. We need to take a close look at sleep deprivation.
It isnt just LGATs that make it hard to pay attention to this. American culture has a macho attitude that devalues sleep, making it seem optional, an indulgence for weaklings.
But medicine and science and case reports from the world of mental health are showing us that health and sanity suffer when we go short on sleep.
Here is the thread on room set up
[board.culteducation.com]
Closely examine the Kopp paper on room set up. THe author suggests
it works by eliciting covert resistance in LGAT participants.
[www.u.arizona.edu]
But despite the author's experience as a volunteer who did room set up, andt hough he recognizes the power of room set up (bunching people close together elbow to elbow might be subtle stress posture because most Westerners prefer to sit, stand and socialize at a greater boundary distance and get nervous if someone stands too close(Page 22-23)
Page 13, Kopp draws attention to the set ups elimination of physical distraction via a subtle and sophisticated room set up protocol.
Page 19--the seminar room is well lit, with florescent lights.
Page 29to 30 The author describes the remarkable lengths taken to
ensure there is zero distraction from what the speaker is doing. He
asserted care is taken to ensure that not even door hinges squeak and
that volunteers make no sudden or distracting movements.
Page 32--author claims efforts are made to regulate the tempreture of the room and that even a dozing participant is listed as one of the things to be managed.
But the author, perhaps because his area of interest was cultural studies and not medicine or physiology, never seems to have wondered whether sleep deprivation/circadian rhythm disruption could be one of the secret ingredients.
What is happening to people's circadian rhythms?
I only became interested in sleep issues I have known of three persons who had bipolar and whose manic swings were triggered when they failed to get enough sleep. In one case the outcome was tragic.
Here is another article on circadian rhythm and bipolar. This man states he had had persons with mania who stabilized if allowed to stay in the dark.
[www.psycheducation.org]
Even with his great insights, Kopp does not appear to have noticed the possible impact of stress plus subtle of sleep deprivation
or the impact of causing the participants to spend most of the day indoors in a room set up cut of from the shifting patterns of sunlight and dark which are turning out to be important in regulating the human body's circadian rhythm.
The lesson here is that we are not autonomous atoms.
We are networked into the rhythms of light and darkness. Health is affected by this.
Persons with bipolar appear exquisitely tied to the rhythms of light and darkness.
People do get breaks during the LGAT described by Kopp, but though there might be time to leave the building and get meals, this might not be enough to enable person with bipolar disorder to maintain sufficient exposure to natural shifts of sunshine and darkness to retain stability.
A social worker who is familiar with the needs of persons with bipolar told me that not only must persons with bipolar get 8 hours of quality sleep a night, every night, even weekends. But..she told me that to maintain stablity and prevent manic swings, that person must get the eight hours and wake up at sun rise. If the person got 8 good hours of sleep yet woke up prior to sunrise, those pre-dawn awakenings were often enough to triger manic epsidoes--even when that person otherwise got 8 hours of sleep!
And we are profoundly affected by physical and social context, yet are given misleading information by both culture and LGAT indoctrination that we are totally autonomous and make our own reality, while being led to ignore the extent to which we are affected by our own bodies, and room set ups and social interactions. It upsets cherished notions of ourselves and our cherished myth of total autonomy to face that we need to be in contact with the changes of light and darkness produced by Mother Nature and the 4 season, or we become de-stabilized.
And some of us have such sensitivity that we must go to very special lengths to protect sleep. A key question is to know IN ADVANCE if some person or project is going to keep us up past our bed time.
Persons genetically susceptible to bipolar affective disorder have to know this so as to protect their sleep patterns by avoiding certain situations, or they can trigger a manic swing.
This is not for lack of will power. It is biochemistry. It is a tragedy that American culture makes it a point of pride to devalue sleep and not get enough of it.
WE CANNOT FULFILL FULL HEALTH AND PSYCHOEMOTIONAL POTENTIAL UNLESS ALL HUMAN BEINGS CAN GET SHELTER, NUTRITION, SLEEP, COMMUNITY, LEARNING, WORK AND PLAY
If any one of these is missing, we cannot be fully ourselves.
We are learning to avoid hydrogenated fats when shopping for food and pondering menu options in restaurants.
It is time to be just as intentional to protect our sleep patterns and refuse to participate in anything that stresses us and keeps us past our bedtime.
Anything or anyone who devalues this is something or someone to be avoided, just as if to say, 'Hey, Crisco is good for you.'
(Note--there may be other LGAT set ups that do take place outdoors. Participants may get exposure to natural changes in sunshine and dark.
Yet..if these LGATs keep people from being able to sleep as much as their bodies require and/or cause people to get up before dawn, and especially if these also inflict stress, regression and shame, this will still be likely to destablize someone who has a sensitive biochemistry or genetic predisposition to bipolar.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 17, 2007 11:58PM
We do not have enough information whether the LEC facilitators One 2 LF described as sleeping on mattresses are 'on the brink'.
To say that would require a personal exam by a professional, and I am not qualified.
But...anyone running that short on sleep (mattresses during breaks) is according to that young physicians study, impaired, as if DUI due to alcohol intoxication. This isnt insanity,but nevertheless, a poor state of mind when making important life decisions, or dealing with stressed forum participants, or in attempting to drive a car or use machinery.
Its probably unlikely that someone with bipolar would last long term as a LEC volunteer or paid employee, because they'd be so likely to get destabilized by the long hours that they'd go manic and be unable to behave in the controlled precise way required by program protocol.
But my layperson's hunch, based on the URL articles cited above is that any subject paying to do the course who has biochemical predisposition to bipolar...that's someone who might well be at risk of getting destabilized.
(And those were just a few articles. Go and Google 'bipolar' and 'sleep' and see what you get. For fun, vary the search by inserting 'sleep disruption' 'sleep deprivation' or 'circadian' into the exact phrase slot, while keeping 'bipolar' 'all words' slot.
Do that. And see what citations you get. Better yet, get some persons with bipolar tell you (or have their loved ones tell you) what happened to t them when their sleep was disrupted and they went manic and what the consequences of that were.
Its getting harder and harder for folks to afford medical care. And--anything requiring psychiatric inpatient hospitalization or even prescription of psych meds on an outpatient basis, is potentially stigmatizing.
The risk isnt worth it.
No, I dont have info on whether insomniacs would be more vulnerable to brainwashing.
Under enough pressure, most of us become vulnerable. But, someone already running low on sleep probably would be at some additional risk.
For this we need imput from a professional--these are my educated guesses.
The problem is, our whole culture devalues sleep.
A real human potential project would ensure that every darned one of us got 8 hours at least of quality snooze each night, every night.
Most of us have little idea how much better we would feel if that were the case.
Sleep as a human right.
A Human Potential Project called 8 Hours a Night
I like it.
To say that would require a personal exam by a professional, and I am not qualified.
But...anyone running that short on sleep (mattresses during breaks) is according to that young physicians study, impaired, as if DUI due to alcohol intoxication. This isnt insanity,but nevertheless, a poor state of mind when making important life decisions, or dealing with stressed forum participants, or in attempting to drive a car or use machinery.
Its probably unlikely that someone with bipolar would last long term as a LEC volunteer or paid employee, because they'd be so likely to get destabilized by the long hours that they'd go manic and be unable to behave in the controlled precise way required by program protocol.
But my layperson's hunch, based on the URL articles cited above is that any subject paying to do the course who has biochemical predisposition to bipolar...that's someone who might well be at risk of getting destabilized.
(And those were just a few articles. Go and Google 'bipolar' and 'sleep' and see what you get. For fun, vary the search by inserting 'sleep disruption' 'sleep deprivation' or 'circadian' into the exact phrase slot, while keeping 'bipolar' 'all words' slot.
Do that. And see what citations you get. Better yet, get some persons with bipolar tell you (or have their loved ones tell you) what happened to t them when their sleep was disrupted and they went manic and what the consequences of that were.
Its getting harder and harder for folks to afford medical care. And--anything requiring psychiatric inpatient hospitalization or even prescription of psych meds on an outpatient basis, is potentially stigmatizing.
The risk isnt worth it.
No, I dont have info on whether insomniacs would be more vulnerable to brainwashing.
Under enough pressure, most of us become vulnerable. But, someone already running low on sleep probably would be at some additional risk.
For this we need imput from a professional--these are my educated guesses.
The problem is, our whole culture devalues sleep.
A real human potential project would ensure that every darned one of us got 8 hours at least of quality snooze each night, every night.
Most of us have little idea how much better we would feel if that were the case.
Sleep as a human right.
A Human Potential Project called 8 Hours a Night
I like it.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: September 21, 2007 04:48AM
Quote
corboy
The problem is, our whole culture devalues sleep.
A real human potential project would ensure that every darned one of us got 8 hours at least of quality snooze each night, every night.
Most of us have little idea how much better we would feel if that were the case.
Sleep as a human right.
A Human Potential Project called 8 Hours a Night
I like it.
So to put it in really simplistic terms, [i:e58ca609ad]sleep[/i:e58ca609ad] is to a cult, what vitamin C is to a cold.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
Vic-Luc
()
Date: September 21, 2007 08:14AM
Quote
ON2 LFQuote
corboy
The problem is, our whole culture devalues sleep.
A real human potential project would ensure that every darned one of us got 8 hours at least of quality snooze each night, every night.
Most of us have little idea how much better we would feel if that were the case.
Sleep as a human right.
A Human Potential Project called 8 Hours a Night
I like it.
So to put it in really simplistic terms, [i:39ecb69c76]sleep[/i:39ecb69c76] is to a cult, what vitamin C is to a cold.
Or like a Fundamentalist is to Evolution, more apt.
letting go of a lekkie: abandonment or necessity?
Posted by:
hampton
()
Date: September 21, 2007 02:51PM
Regarding sleep deprivation in Landmark participants, the Forum ends sometime between 10 pm and midnight. Thankfully, I only had to drive about 30 minutes to get home. However, there were others who had to drive a substantial distance (and I heard that my Forum leader was staying in a hotel across the street). But can the Forum participant go to bed when they get home? No! There is homework to be done by the next morning! And if the homework is not done, the "integrity" of the participant is questioned, and questioned quite harshly if they end up on stage.
In terms of fatigue and rest, the Forum leader might be able to catch some sleep on a mattress during a break, but the participants are told to spend their breaks in groups discussing assigned topics, or to be on the phone expressing their "inauthenticity" to friends and family, followed by extending an invitation to their "completion" night (the real reason Landmark wants the participant to make the phone call).
The requirement (or in Landmark jargon, the "request") to the participants to spend meal breaks in a small group continues in the Advanced Course and in SELP. Heaven forbid someone could be alone and get some rest during a break.
When I was in an all-day SELP session, instead of eating with my small group, I wanted to lie down in my car because I was exhausted and still recovering from surgery. I was told by the group that the fatigue was not real and it was all in my mind (an idea from the ridiculous headache exercise in the Forum).
Going back to the discussion of psychology in this thread, I could see Landmark telling someone who had a serious reaction that it's not Landmark that is the problem, it is YOU and it is all in your mind.
In terms of fatigue and rest, the Forum leader might be able to catch some sleep on a mattress during a break, but the participants are told to spend their breaks in groups discussing assigned topics, or to be on the phone expressing their "inauthenticity" to friends and family, followed by extending an invitation to their "completion" night (the real reason Landmark wants the participant to make the phone call).
The requirement (or in Landmark jargon, the "request") to the participants to spend meal breaks in a small group continues in the Advanced Course and in SELP. Heaven forbid someone could be alone and get some rest during a break.
When I was in an all-day SELP session, instead of eating with my small group, I wanted to lie down in my car because I was exhausted and still recovering from surgery. I was told by the group that the fatigue was not real and it was all in my mind (an idea from the ridiculous headache exercise in the Forum).
Going back to the discussion of psychology in this thread, I could see Landmark telling someone who had a serious reaction that it's not Landmark that is the problem, it is YOU and it is all in your mind.
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