The are not ALLOWED to call you BY LAW ... I would call the center manager in London (and no one else) that you asked s.o. to be on their "DO NOT CALL" list, and it did not happen. Tell him that you are VERY annoyed, and that you don't want to receive any further calls, and if it happens you have to go to court. I am sure, it will stop then. Other office members might be not so reliable, since some of them are volunteers.
Calling a center manager, will certainly be not a another bad or traumatic experience, since they are trained to properly deal with people.

I went to the office to complain about the call. They denied the call was made from the office. I have also told me that to call me again was illegal. They said they understood that. The moment they say they understand that, i showed my recorder and let them know that everything was taped. That really took them aback. They asked me to leave or they would call the police.
"OH YES! Call them"
"We will"
"YES! Please DO call them. Let them come here and we'll discuss this with them. Let's talk with them about your calls. I was actually thinking of calling them myself".
"OK". I nodded to the phone but for some reason :roll: , they didn't call anyone.
They moved to a soft, 'let's talk about it' attitude and asked me to turn the recorder off, which i refused to do. I told them I wanted everything on tape. They showed me my pc file, which was actually listed as dont call me. They denied, on tape, to have other files (As if I didn't know about the paper forms). They said some assistant might have kept my number and called me on their own initiative. I told them the guy said to be calling from Landmark Education and tho the number was hidden, I could ask the authorities to track it back. They promised me they won't call again. I pointed at the recorded again and said that if they ever contact me in any way, by any mean, either openly or anonimously i'll sue them and the tape with their sentences like "we understand it's illegal to call you" will be used against them in court.

At this point, I might as well change my number. It's no big deal. I have unloaded my baggage, I have fought for my rights and I have a tape to protect me in the future. I can move on and avoid future problems without feeling a coward. I wanted to fight and I did. I don't want to be on guard for the rest of my life. I have been a landmarkian, I don't want to spend my days now being an ex-landmarkian. This is chapter must be closed.

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maurice
I went to the office to complain about the call. They denied the call was made from the office. I have also told me that to call me again was illegal. They said they understood that. The moment they say they understand that, i showed my recorder and let them know that everything was taped. That really took them aback. They asked me to leave or they would call the police.
"OH YES! Call them"
"We will"
"YES! Please DO call them. Let them come here and we'll discuss this with them. Let's talk with them about your calls. I was actually thinking of calling them myself".
"OK". I nodded to the phone but for some reason :roll: , they didn't call anyone.
They moved to a soft, 'let's talk about it' attitude and asked me to turn the recorder off, which i refused to do. I told them I wanted everything on tape. They showed me my pc file, which was actually listed as dont call me. They denied, on tape, to have other files (As if I didn't know about the paper forms). They said some assistant might have kept my number and called me on their own initiative. I told them the guy said to be calling from Landmark Education and tho the number was hidden, I could ask the authorities to track it back. They promised me they won't call again. I pointed at the recorded again and said that if they ever contact me in any way, by any mean, either openly or anonimously i'll sue them and the tape with their sentences like "we understand it's illegal to call you" will be used against them in court.

At this point, I might as well change my number. It's no big deal. I have unloaded my baggage, I have fought for my rights and I have a tape to protect me in the future. I can move on and avoid future problems without feeling a coward. I wanted to fight and I did. I don't want to be on guard for the rest of my life. I have been a landmarkian, I don't want to spend my days now being an ex-landmarkian. This is chapter must be closed.

Congratulations! Really well-done, go get them ... :twisted: I like the idea with the tape recorder ... we should all show up with tape recorders at Landmark offices :twisted: :twisted: .

I can't believe THEY said they would call the police ... arrogant ass... as always. I mean, they want to call the police, but obviously, they are acting against the law and upsetting "customers" ... They are just too stupid and arrogant. A great scene for a TV documentation of the Landmark cult. But, I am sure, now they won't call you again.

Maurice wrote:

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their blinkers are on good and proper and they're trained to think of a 'no' as a 'no for now'

That really puts it in a nutshell. 'No' meaning 'no-for-now', rather than being heard as 'I am not interested, no now, not ever.'

Says everything that Werner started out as a high pressure salesman. Prime directive for these types of salespeople is that 'no' does not mean, 'respect this person' refusal and go away'-- for them, 'no' means 'keep pushing.'

A person for whom 'no' means 'no-for-now' rather than 'no-and-this-means-no-for-all-time-in-all-corners-of-the-universe' operates from a position of perverse strength.

The phrase for this is 'Its like reasoning with a box of rocks.'

Thier lack of regard for other people's preferences is a lack of empathy that is the interpersonal equivalent of a bunker.

Actually listening to people's preferences, and respecting those preferences is hard work. If you respect the word 'no' it will mean something to you. A refusal or hesitation expressed by another person will [u:583ef50635]matter [/u:583ef50635]to you.

People with that kind of empathy expend more effort when communicating than than those who dont have empathy and do not hear 'no' as 'no.'

Perceiving another person's prefernce and respeting another person's preference takes effort.

People without regard for other people's preferences are free to just bull their way throughencounters free from the hesitations that hobble those who were raised to give a damn what other people prefer and to show respect and back off if another person says 'no.'

That may be part of the attraction of this sort of LGAT training. You are trained to ignore other people's preferences and become anesthetized to them. Sad to say, there are some occupations like marketing, where this mulishness can lead to financial success.

But, IMO this sort of thing has a dehumanizing effect.

If you dont have regard for the [b:583ef50635]actual preferences [/b:583ef50635]of the other person, caring only for yourself or your groups ideology, another person's 'no' becomes just a set of funny noises that do not match the pattern you are looking for. And the person making that set of funny noises is no longer a person, just an object to manipulate until he or she will make the right set of noises and sign up for a training.

Meanwhile the person who is saying 'no' and assumes they are being listened to as a person, when in fact they are [b:583ef50635]not [/b:583ef50635]being regarded as a person will eventually get confused, then exhausted during an encounter in which they keep stating thier preference ('no') and it goes unheard.

You risk getting so *worn down* by having your repeated attempts at 'no' going unheard that you could end up going right on back...

So, its worth asking whether the LGAT folks are being trained not to listen for [i:583ef50635]meaning[/i:583ef50635], but to listen for the right pattern of stimulus-response.

Maybe the recruiter isnt even perceiving another person when making these calls, but perhaps is behaving like a rat in a Skinner box, pushing at the button ([u:583ef50635]you[/u:583ef50635]) trying to elicit a specific reponse--

'Okay, I'll come on in for a training'.

Any set of sounds you make that dont match up with an agreement to come in for anothe round is a signal 'keep on trying'.

As long as you say 'no' they probably dont hear your humanity. They just hear funny noises that mean 'gotta keep trying'.

Some speculations:

It will be interesting to ponder if recruiters are trained to listen for voice tone.

If you put a lot of energy into saying F off, they may see that as encouraging. (Good, he's angry. If you keep him angry, eventually he will get worn out and come in.)

If you show weakness and hesitation...maybe that is taken as another opening.

Ugh.

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corboy
A person for whom 'no' means 'no-for-now' rather than 'no-and-this-means-no-for-all-time-in-all-corners-of-the-universe' operates from a position of perverse strength.

The phrase for this is 'Its like reasoning with a box of rocks.'

That's exactly why they are so persuasive. The people making the follow up calls after introductions are usually people on the introduction leaders programme or staff and the training is not to react to the other person's 'stories' and to keep on pushing for what they don't even know that they need - the possibilities that completing the Landmark Forum will make real in their life. It was called 'being a stand' for the other person and overcoming your natural resistance to accepting other people's preferences was a huge part of the training. Of course, being measured on how many of these people signed up during these conversations was also an added incentive :oops:

Ugh indeed.

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So, its worth asking whether the LGAT folks are being trained not to listen for [i:86b5bbb0d8]meaning[/i:86b5bbb0d8], but to listen for the right pattern of stimulus-response.

Maybe the recruiter isnt even perceiving another person when making these calls, but perhaps is behaving like a rat in a Skinner box, pushing at the button ([u:86b5bbb0d8]you[/u:86b5bbb0d8]) trying to elicit a specific reponse--

It wasn't meaning so much (after all, we'd swallowed the LF punchline othat life is empty and meaningless) as possibility i.e. what would this person's life look like if what they saw was possible during their introduction/conversation with whoever introduced them to it became real. The tiniest bit of information was enough to start a whole intrusive conversation.

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It will be interesting to ponder if recruiters are trained to listen for voice tone.

Yes, that happened on the ILP I was on. There wasn't a lot of it but it was there.

Of course, this all holds for people who you want to sign up to a course. For any of the volunteers there was no time spent listening, just a bleak reminder that they'd given their word and that by not fulfilling it were out of integrity.

I used their own stuff on them after I did the Forum. I was bored and disgusted in the series that was included in the Forum and dropped out. When they called and tried to persuade me to return I simpl said "I choose not to." and remained silent. It worked. I also then was successful in getting a full refund.

hey Maurice, it sounds like following your own "instincts" on this issue is going to pay off.
Facing down and being Assertive is something that has a lot of positive effects over time. (as opposed to being too passive, or too aggressive).
Landmark does not want people who are healthily Assertive, as they are "tough customers". All of these LGAT groups-cults look for easier "marks" as its just so much easier to sell them stuff and manipulate them.

Its clear that committing a type of "psychological terrorism" on people is part of Landmark's strategy.

One thing for all of us to remember, is that those sorts of psychological terror tactics, effect different people in very different ways. Something that bounces off one person, can severely traumatize another person. So every person can be effected in profoundly different ways, and thus has to go about the healing process in their own unique way.
So its important to trust one's own instincts in these issues.