Well, blaming the woman for her part in it does make sense.

However, I'd have more of a problem with your BF in that situation. After all, HE is the one who was involved in that relationship with you - not her. Of course, if you knew that he was of a polyamorous mindset, you had to know that this type of a situation was not only possible, but likely. Did he make a commitment to monogamy with you?

Of course, to me, polyamorous relationships are an excuse. They are an excuse to not have a real commitment, and give a rationalization for screwing around. But that's just me.

[Hi, DayDreamer--been meaning to write you.]

Yes, definitely my boyfriend is the main person whose behavior I should be (and am) disappointed in. However, I just EXPECT a higher degree of ethical behavior out of someone who is acting in a counselor role--as this woman was to me. (This woman is also one of the representatives for HAI, sometimes doing Intros.) What I would have appreciated from this woman was some glimmer of understanding that telling me she wasn't interested in my boyfriend in the context of a HAI small group leader check-in might not have been the wisest thing. I would like for her (and others on the HAI team) to be more responsible and to understand the ramifications of their actions.

And, that's what worries me about folks who are serving on team with HAI--they seem to be there mainly to have sex. I know that's my boyfriend's primary motivation--to meet potential sex partners, and partcularly, couples that he can involve in group sex situations.

My ex was always poly and I got along well with the two other partner he had during our relationship. What I feel changed when he got so involved with HAI was that he truly came to believe that he could be on the "smorgasbord plan," whereas before he had concentrated on fewer relationships with more quality. Also, I found it rather specious that HAI claims it's about developing a deeper quality of love and communication in relationships, when it really seems to be about having rather shallow multiple relationships--again, the smogasbord plan!

I continue to feel that the influence of HAI and my boyfriend's increased involvement with it was partly responsible--not totally, of course--for us falling apart. He absolutely put HAI ahead of our relationship, which doesn't seem to me to be the way to building more loving relationships as HAI claims it does.

DayDreamer wrote:

"Of course, to me, polyamorous relationships are an excuse. They are an excuse to not have a real commitment, and give a rationalization for screwing around. But that's just me."

In my boyfriend's case, that is exactly what's going on. He rationalizes screwing around by calling himself "poly." However, while I don't think I ever want to be involved in a poly reationship again, I will note that I have seem a few good, solid poly relationships, where there was an emphasis on creating a family unit and being loving and responsible towards one another.

Interestingly enough, these responsible poly folks are NOT involved in HAI! In fact, one man in the local poly group (who has been involved with HAI also) said that he agreed with me that HAI is fostering an "irresponsible" form of polyamory.

I'm one of those who don't think there IS a "responsible" form of polyamory. To me, by definition, polyamory is irresponsible. Playing with the lives and emotions of others. I know some people involved in it (well, actually, I know many, since I'm involved in science fiction fandom somewhat), and it seems like a bunch of overgrown adolescents trying to get laid by multiple people - using being "poly" as an excuse to do so. Poly relationships are in theory supposed to be emotionally-based relationships, not a screw-fest.

I still find it interesting that the one intern I was close to has not called me in quite some time. He used to call me just to check in and see how I was doing... on average of once a week. He was not interested in me sexually and made no secret of that fact (I'm a "fat chick," so very much not his type), but he always was willing to listen, was all about the "love everyone" thing and "ask for your 100%" etc. Once he found out that I was NOT thrilled with HAI, he tried to talk me around to his way of thinking. That didn't work - and I haven't heard from him since. Apparently those who leave the fold are no longer "worthy."

I think we've strayed somewhat from the topic at hand. It seems to me the most useful purpose a forum like this can serve is to provide resources regarding risk, reward, and danger of participating in any number of group-based entities available to the curious, troubled, or seeking. (Props to Rick.) IMHO this is not a good place to hash out personal morality issues: I fully respect your entitlement to your beliefs but I don't think the current debate is useful in ways I'll explain below. I'll attempt in this post to show a style I hope might be useful.

I attended a level 1 workshop this last weekend. It was the first "personal growth" workshop of any kind whatsoever that I've ever been to, partly because I'm basically happy with the way things are going and partly due to a native skepticism about the efficacy of these workshops in the first place. But I had a few specific things that were bothering me (collateral damage from my divorce, difficulty getting past casual dating, etc) and I went with an open mind, figuring that if this helped me at all it's much cheaper than therapy.

All in all, it was a positive experience for me, though not without drawbacks. In other words, HAI is not perfect, but I saw nothing about it that would be harmful or coercive [i:28a1ceecd1]to a typical person.[/i:28a1ceecd1]

Let me explain those italics. Attendees ran the gamut from basically fine, well-integrated individuals to people with fairly serious problems. To be more precise, all the attendees seemed to me (a layman) to be in fundamentally sound mental health, but many had suffered a recent trauma or crisis, and others had longstanding histories of abuse or trauma with which they'd coped more or less successfully, and were here for help and guidance.

I'd rather not be more specific about the problems because of the confidentiality agreement, which was verbal and informal, but basically consisted of the entirely defensible proposition that these people have trusted me with their deepest secrets and problems, often that they have never told anyone before, and it would be at least a terrible disrespect to them to discuss their details without their permission. Because the confidentiality principle is to protect the privacy of other people, I don't see a problem with it.

In fact, the facilitators went so far as to say that any revelations that could be criminal in nature, or that might otherwise have legal ramifications, should not be brought up in small groups or in open sharing. The reason is that though anonymous in that our titles and status were not openly disclosed at the workshop, attendees might in fact be members of the medical or justice systems (for instance), whose professional oaths might [i:28a1ceecd1]require[/i:28a1ceecd1] them to take action based on a person's admission. Rather than put these people in a professional conflict of interest, HAI prefers to discuss any such matters privately away from the main group.

Back to the italics. The program in general is designed to foster swift and profound emotional, non-sexual intimacy between and among participants. Just like people with a heart condition should cautiously engage in strenuous activities, people with a perilous emotional state should proceed with caution. The program is designed so that persons who are emotionally vulnerable will be to some extent safeguarded -- the emphasis on choice and limits, the constant reminder that permission [i:28a1ceecd1]must be granted, explicitly[/i:28a1ceecd1] before proceeding into any exercise that involves revealing of the soul or body, or that involves touch or contact.

But the safeguarding isn't, and can't practically be, absolute. There is a certain assumption of risk any participant must take; there are no risk-free activities in life anyway, and the HAI program does take pains to minimize the risk a vulnerable participant must undergo.

Rather than discuss the morality or intent of nudity, I would merely observe that nudity is a major component of the social milieu of the workshop, but akin to nudist principles (as I understand them) the decision to go clothed or unclothed was specifically left to the individual. After verifying that I could in fact walk around barenaked in front of strangers, I found I was personally more comfortable wearing shorts. Most of the group in fact wore shorts, panties, robes, or some sort of drape for a large part of the workshop, and there was no explicit or implicit pressure to disrobe fully. In fact some participants were fully clothed the whole time, to no comment whatsoever from the group or the facilitators.

Purely sexual content was also minimal. It could not be nonexistent in an environment in which so many people were experiencing nudity for the first time, but there was no (repeat, [b:28a1ceecd1]no[/b:28a1ceecd1]) overt sexual activity of any kind. Rather it was more of an undertone, from time to time, for some people, but not part of the workshop's intent. Any form of physical contact required repeated negotiation of the acceptable limits. My group of four showed a typical range of limits. For some it was no breast or genital contact at all, even incidental, while I told the group I effectively had no limits they were likely to find, and asked instead that they not perform any action that made them uncomfortable...and they didn't. I got the same touch and contact as others.

In general, I felt HAI made a laudable attempt to respect the values of its participants. I think we are best served in this forum by simply explaining, as clearly as possible, our experiences and our conclusions. If your personal code is strongly against essentially any intimacy, sexual or not, between unmarried or uncommitted persons, you will find HAI unpleasant. If you dislike situations that could be construed as sexual, I don't recommend HAI as your group workshop. I don't believe HAI's situations are intended to be sexual, but if you think you would find them sexual and uncomfortable, [i:28a1ceecd1]you should not go.[/i:28a1ceecd1]

However, I do not think you are in the right to condemn HAI or any other group solely for this reason. Live and let live. If HAI, or any other group, is abusive, coercive, or unethical, they should be judged harshly and reported on this (and other) pages. But I think "unethical" in this context means "to make one act in conflict with his beliefs and values, and not for one's own good."

Finally, Ciruela, you have been shabbily and shamefully treated by two individuals, not a HAI workshop. HAI was an excuse for them, a pretext, not the author of your misery. The HAI staffers I met would have been utterly appalled and humiliated at what was perpetrated under their colors; have you written a letter to anyone at HAI about this? I would be disappointed beyond words if you had and they have not responded. Finally, for your own good, may I advise you that you find a way to come to terms with your betrayal, and even go so far as to forgive the betrayers in your heart. What they did was wrong and inexcusable, but they have no right to govern your life through their actions. In the fullness of time, put your bitterness behind you that you can live [b:28a1ceecd1]your[/b:28a1ceecd1] life properly and completely, not in thrall to another. I have tried to follow this advice myself, and hard as it is, it is better for me than the melancholy alternative. Good luck and peace to you.

Thank you all for your patience and attention. I await your responses.

Quote
DayDreamer
Once he found out that I was NOT thrilled with HAI, he tried to talk me around to his way of thinking. That didn't work - and I haven't heard from him since. Apparently those who leave the fold are no longer "worthy."

DayDreamer, isn't it a simpler theory that, having determined you were no longer interested in HAI or its principles, he respects you enough to stop pestering you?

Incidentally, I admire your patience and generosity in your posts. It's rare to find people any more who can disagree in a principled way with others but still treat them with respect and dignity.

Quote
DayDreamer
Interestingly enough, these responsible poly folks are NOT involved in HAI! In fact, one man in the local poly group (who has been involved with HAI also) said that he agreed with me that HAI is fostering an "irresponsible" form of polyamory.

I don't remember HAI fostering any form of polyamory.
I remember peter talking about his experience, which is how he and his choose to set things up. (Open relationship)

One thing I've observed in watching different poly email lists, is that there are a lot of versions of what poly is. For some, it seems to be something that's much closer to swinging. (Hi, I'm poly, want to fuck?) For others, it's about long term, or lifetime commitments, and not ever something to enter into lightly. As long as everyone in the group is in agreement about what's going on, I don't see the problem. Now one of the major pitfalls of poly is that frequently people aren't open and honest, and so things go off the rails for that reason.

At no point though, did I get the impression that HAI was promoting poly, monogamy, or any other form of relationship. I do see that they are neutral to the form of your relationship, giving you tools to open your eyes and get past fears that are holding you back.

So it's hardly a surprise that when people go to something like hai, they may change, and sometimes in very profound ways. This may not be well received by their partners, depending on which way they changed, and which way their partners changed. I know I changed a lot. Fortunately lori and I changed in very similar ways, and it's been wonderful for us.

I never got the idea from hai that poly was "the right choice", but just that it was an option that works for some people. I was exposed to the idea of poly long ago, through heinlein (like so many people) and although at the time I thought it was a beautiful thing, I never thought that I would see it in real life.

HAI honors monogamy. You are welcome to do the workshop with the person(s) you came with, or mix around as you choose. Lori and I had a bit of a conflict at first, in that she wanted to stay with me (fear) and I wanted her to mix around, reasoning that she's got me 24/7, and she might get something valuable working with others.
We compromised, and she did some with me, and some with others, and that's working out just fine.

Getting back to the original question though, is this a cult?

One of the hallmarks of a cult, is insularity. They want you to only look to them for answers, and they sometimes punish their members for allowing outside thoughts/information in. (scientology)

That's not the case with hai. At no time were we told or pressured in any way to cut off communication with others, or to only look to hai.

The only pressure I felt there, came from ME, wanting to push my boundaries hard and break out of the old patterns which were clearly NOT working for either of us. I did that, and the results were much better than I could have hoped for. It's been almost a year now, and we are about to go back for level three.. We are closer now than we have been in many years, and really beginning to have fun again, and be more like a young couple in love.

We just choose to share that with others. Our choice, YMMV, IANAL, ETC.

Quote
iamtooch

Quote
DayDreamer
Once he found out that I was NOT thrilled with HAI, he tried to talk me around to his way of thinking. That didn't work - and I haven't heard from him since. Apparently those who leave the fold are no longer "worthy."

DayDreamer, isn't it a simpler theory that, having determined you were no longer interested in HAI or its principles, he respects you enough to stop pestering you?

Incidentally, I admire your patience and generosity in your posts. It's rare to find people any more who can disagree in a principled way with others but still treat them with respect and dignity.

Iamtooch, no.. I don't believe so. I've talked to him extensively for the last several months, and he appears to not be willing to have a friendship of any kind with anyone who is not actively involved with HAI.

I also have to say... to me, HAI does appear to have some aspects of a true cult. In other ways it does not. You say you've been a recent Level 1, and I can honestly say that for the most part, my L1 experience was also very positive.

The problem is with the subsequent levels. I can, and do, recommend a L1 for people I think would benefit from it. But I also think that for levels after that, they MUST be very careful.

Quote
iamtooch
Rather than discuss the morality or intent of nudity, I would merely observe that nudity is a major component of the social milieu of the workshop, but akin to nudist principles (as I understand them) the decision to go clothed or unclothed was specifically left to the individual.

At level 1, perhaps. But, as stated before, there's rarely an "inspection hour" at a nudist camp/colony.. even more rare are activities directly centered on inspecting and displaying one's penis/vagina on stage. (yeah, that happens at level 2)

While i'm all for sexual education (i have a 5 year old boy, and have already gotten the "I want a new cousin! Lets go to the hospital and get one!" statement from him), its my opinion that such an intimate thing should be handled on a one-on-one basis, with someone you're truely willing to be intimate with.

Quote
iamtooch
In general, I felt HAI made a laudable attempt to respect the values of its participants. I think we are best served in this forum by simply explaining, as clearly as possible, our experiences and our conclusions. If your personal code is strongly against essentially any intimacy, sexual or not, between unmarried or uncommitted persons, you will find HAI unpleasant. If you dislike situations that could be construed as sexual, I don't recommend HAI as your group workshop. I don't believe HAI's situations are intended to be sexual, but if you think you would find them sexual and uncomfortable, [i:28040d9692]you should not go.[/i:28040d9692]

Quote
dbvanhorn
At no point though, did I get the impression that HAI was promoting poly, monogamy, or any other form of relationship. I do see that they are neutral to the form of your relationship, giving you tools to open your eyes and get past fears that are holding you back.

Honestly, Level 1 has alot of good points, even if the nudity may make some people uncomfortable, and it gets delt with as you'd explained. I personally didnt see a whole lot of problem with level 1 as a whole, and have in fact reccomended Level 1 to a couple of my friends as a "reinvigorate your hope in yourself and humanity" type of workshop.

Its the later workshops that really seem to set the stage for acceptance of polyamory/group sex.

HAI doesnt actively push people into that lifestyle, but they do put their participants into situations where they're more inclined to draw the conclusion that it's allright to have sexual contact with more than one person at any given time. Feeling like you're ready to "take a chance", and reaching over to touch someone's sex organ, in this relaxed environment, would prompt you to be more comfortable to doing it again.. and again.. and again, then you're willing to do it more often because you become comfortable with it - you've already broken through that barrier and done it.

I think of polyamory to be much akin to trying a new food. Try it once, to see if you like it. Sometimes, you're completely disgusted and never touch it again, be it from the reprocussions (sickness, allergic reaction, etc), or the texture, or whatever. Sometimes, you need a second taste to make sure. Once you've decided if you like it or not, you'll take it when it's offered if there's not something you like better available, or you wont... and HAI just sets the plate out for you.

Granted, these are only my conclusions based on my knowledge of myself and group mentality, i have no degree in psychology, I just believe myself to be rather observant to other's behaviors.

Quote
iamtooch
However, I do not think you are in the right to condemn HAI or any other group solely for this reason. Live and let live. If HAI, or any other group, is abusive, coercive, or unethical, they should be judged harshly and reported on this (and other) pages. But I think "unethical" in this context means "to make one act in conflict with his beliefs and values, and not for one's own good."

I would agree.. I don't condemn HAI for their purpose, I think it's a great thing to want to help humanity be more comfortable with itself. I just think that they should be able to do it with their clothes on.

Its the bit where they call strict and undivided attention to the sexual organs (albiet that doesnt really happen until Level 2, and presumably more afterwards) that really seems to cross the line between a "human awareness" seminar and a "sexual awareness" seminar.

I just wanted to post briefly, because I have been silent for a while, and I know that iamtooch addressed some comments to me a while back and, DayDreamer, I know that I still haven't responded to your last private message to me.

I work for a software company, and I've been in "crunch mode" since about July 4. As soon as I get this release off my back, I'll be re-entering this discussion.

I just didn't want anyone to misinterpret my silence--I'm still quite interested in this topic and in replying to the posts of recent weeks.

Thanks,

Ciruela

A few days ago, I was sent an online survey about HAI, particularly our region. It asked a bunch of questions about age, gender, income, etc. but the main questions were about our experiences with HAI. They had to do with reasons why we joined, what levels we'd participated in, etc.

Some had to do with specific sexual situations that may have occurred, etc. I am not going to break the confidentiality as to the exact questions, but some of the comments that were listed just blew me away!!

Apparently I am DEFINITELY not the only person in HAI who has complaints about the general atmosphere with regard to sex. There are those who find the open promoting of poly relationships as not only normal, but preferable... to be sickening and/or irritating. Others complained that one member of their monogamous relationship had been approached sexually without the knowledge of the other partner. All KINDS of things.

The one that surprised me was a very specific and negative characterization of Chip as leading the workshops - they want him banned from leading workshops. Wow.

This survey was by-invitation-only. It makes me wonder (1) what prompted the survey to be created and (2) what criteria were used to decide which people were invited to participate in the survey.