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SeekingTruth
Interesting that Level 8 (and its implied full blown group sex) only made an appearance after the death of HAI gheru Stan Dale. I bet he and his first wife are turning in their graves.

I wouldn't be surprised if Level 8 was in the works while he was still alive. The entire organization was founded by Stan Dale, and I don't think anything was done without his approval. But it IS interesting that it didn't actually get going on Level 8 until after his death - maybe they made it more explicit or something.

NOTHING they do would surprise me at this point. Sick freaks.

Two things which might be of use to this discussion - 1) I have been told by a facilitator that Stan was heavily involved in the design of Level 8 and, 2) having attended the first Level 8 workshop, it has very little in common with the assumptions posted on this thread.

Like all personal growth workshops (HAI and others), level 8 will be a very good match for some people and not for others. I would recommend it to people who got a lot out of other HAI workshops; I also assume that people who decide after a couple of workshops they don't like HAI's workshop style or content, wouldn't feel comfortable with this specific workshop either.

No matter what one reads into marketing materials (or how one defines "sex" - the broad way HAI does or the narrow way that has been the focus of recent conversation on this thread), to me it's kinda simple - HAI either is your cup of tea as a learning forum or not. It isn't about how many levels are offered - it is about each person figuring out whether attending is a good fit for them or not and doing what feels like the right choice for them. I wholeheartedly support the people on this thread who have decided HAI's approach and/or content isn't for them.

Siofra
(HAI intern)

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siofra
Two things which might be of use to this discussion - 1) I have been told by a facilitator that Stan was heavily involved in the design of Level 8 and, 2) having attended the first Level 8 workshop, it has very little in common with the assumptions posted on this thread.

Like all personal growth workshops (HAI and others), level 8 will be a very good match for some people and not for others. I would recommend it to people who got a lot out of other HAI workshops; I also assume that people who decide after a couple of workshops they don't like HAI's workshop style or content, wouldn't feel comfortable with this specific workshop either.

No matter what one reads into marketing materials (or how one defines "sex" - the broad way HAI does or the narrow way that has been the focus of recent conversation on this thread), to me it's kinda simple - HAI either is your cup of tea as a learning forum or not. It isn't about how many levels are offered - it is about each person figuring out whether attending is a good fit for them or not and doing what feels like the right choice for them. I wholeheartedly support the people on this thread who have decided HAI's approach and/or content isn't for them.

Siofra
(HAI intern)

Whatever. I say if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In this case, if it promotes poly relationships and group sex, subtly undermines monogamy, and encourages people to inspect each other's genitalia.... it's DEFINITELY a duck.

I think that the spouses of ALL HAI participants should be informed of exactly what goes on. Nobody seems to think about THEIR "choice" in these matters.

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DayDreamer
Whatever. I say if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In this case, if it promotes poly relationships and group sex, subtly undermines monogamy, and encourages people to inspect each other's genitalia.... it's DEFINITELY a duck.

I think that the spouses of ALL HAI participants should be informed of exactly what goes on. Nobody seems to think about THEIR "choice" in these matters.

The CHOICE does seems to be more one of deception against the absent life partner.

HAI does seem to be all about breaking down barriers towards polyamoury and uncommited group sex. No wonder sexually transmitted diseases are soaring around the world, and it was largely the 1960s concept of 'free love' that got the gay and straight communities into big trouble with the onset of HIV / AIDS.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2008 10:30AM by S_Byers666.

As someone who is monogamous and makes conservative choices personally, I can relate to your compassion for absent partners.

From my experience. I can tell you that the majority of participants are proactive in discussing their workshop participation with their partners before the weekend. By looking at all the possibilities for what might occur in a sexuality workshop, the couples agree on boundaries which will be honored by the participating partner. I have had a number of situations as a participant or a team member when participants have said, “I can’t do this exercise. I have an agreement with my partner.” In this case, we sort out how to best use the exercise time in a way that honors the partnership and its agreements.

I believe responsibility for integrity rests with each individual regardless of whether they are at a sexuality workshop (HAI, tantra or other), traveling for business or finding temptation in other places. People of high integrity treat their partners well regardless of the circumstances. What that will look like may vary depending on the particular couple's preferrences but for me, I would not want either to participate in a sexuality workshop or have my partner do so without a full discussion, clear boundaries and full trust in my partner and myself to honor our agreements.

Siofra



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2008 09:58PM by siofra.

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siofra
From my experience. I can tell you that the majority of participants are proactive in discussing their workshop participation with their partners before the weekend. By looking at all the possibilities for what might occur in a sexuality workshop, the couples agree on boundaries which will be honored by the participating partner. Siofra

See, I don't believe this. Because people involved in a true monogamous relationship would not CONSENT for their partners to go to a workshop of this nature without them. And no one in good conscience who is involved in a true monogamous relationship would WANT to be going to a workshop of this nature without their spouse. At least, not if they want to KEEP the spouse.

And as I recall, this is supposed to be a LOVE, INTIMACY & Sexuality workshop. Sexuality is supposedly THIRD on the billing, and 3rd place as far as what is important. Yet the sexuality is what is discussed and dealt with most. The workshops appear to gloss over the love and intimacy to GET the sex.

That's why I say that these workshops are thinly-veiled attempts to get people to consent to group sex, poly relationships etc.

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siofra
From my experience. I can tell you that the majority of participants are proactive in discussing their workshop participation with their partners before the weekend.

Hmm - how do you know? Maybe that is what you hope but I would opine that many attend and participate WITHOUT full discussion with their partners.

In any case full discussion is not an option because prior to a weekend few know what the activities or exercises will involve, and afterwards details cannot be discussed without breaking the agreement of secrecy. But in a committed relationship there should not be any secrets - yet HAI insists that details are not divulged. How can that promote love and respect between committed couples?

There is also the situation where an unattached male (or female) participates in intimate sexual activities with someone who IS attached to a partner who may or may not be present at the time. Even if this is by mutual consent it could open the door to further extra marital sexual activities after the weekend. In other words people are being taught that extra marital sex is OK. Therefore HAI is promoting swinging!!

After level 1 (used to suck people into the organisation), 'Love and Intimacy' certainly seems to take second place to Sexuality and Sex.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2008 08:08PM by SeekingTruth.

When I state something is from my experience, that is what it is based on – conversations with people I met. It is not scientific fact, just my perception.

Saying that most people I met discuss the workshop with their partners before they go does not infer what their preferences are for agreements, how fully the partners choose to discuss the workshop nor whether their choices align with mine…or Daydreamer's…or Seeking Truth's. One thing HAI has taught me is that people are very individual in the choices they make and that many people make choices very different from mine. One side note here, I don't see many people at workshops who are in the circumstance you describe - monogomous and there without their partners. There are some, but not many - probably in part for the reasons you mention.

I believe full discussion is an option before or after a workshop. Without knowing exercise details, I can tell my partner very specifically the boundaries I don’t want them to cross. They are the same boundaries I wouldn’t want crossed under any circumstances, in or out of a sexuality workshop.

A different aspect on the confidentiality agreements which has not been addressed... If I were to be sexual at a workshop in a way that needed discussion with a partner, I am not forbidden to discuss my action. My agreement is not to divulge exercises. Thus, I can discuss what I did without sharing whether it was in an exercise or during my evening after the workshop is over for the day.

In Seeking Truth’s comments I see a different perspective on human nature than mine. To me, I am responsible for my actions, regardless of circumstances, temptations of another person being attractive to me…

Thus, a partner could trust me to go anywhere without ever needing to be concerned that I would ever do anything that would violate the sacredness of our relationship. If I take my perspective from another angle, according to my belief system, should I cross a line, I am the one responsible for doing so. It isn’t about whose path I crossed or what 15 minute exercise I participated in, I am responsible for treating my partner and our relationship with forethought and care.

HAI neither promotes nor condemns swinging. HAI offers a forum for learning about love, intimacy and sexuality which ends up drawing a melting pot of monogamous single folks, intact couples, swingers, celibates, ...
There is an underlying difference in this conversation about what we believe a sexuality workshop (HAI or other) should be. I believe a sexuality workshop is a petri glass – where I can experiment within my own bounds of what I am comfortable with in a neutral environment (apart from my daily life). It is a learning environment to me.

What gets discussed ON THIS BLOG is the sexuality aspects of the workshops. That does not mean it is the only theme of the workshops. I note that people who have posted concerns about this have either not attended workshops or decided the sexuality components weren’t a fit for them after 1-2 workshops. My recommendation is that a larger sample of people who have done multiple levels of workshops be tapped before you infer what the real balance of workshop content is. For me, sexuality was neither the draw nor what I got the most out of from HAI workshops. I would enjoy the workshops just as much if sexuality were excluded from the curriculum. I share this to help you see that different people can focus on and emphasize different workshop elements.

Siofra

HAI offers a forum for learning about love, intimacy and sexuality which ends up drawing a melting pot of monogamous single folks, intact couples, swingers, celibates, ...


Just curious siofra . . . how does HAI teach people about love? What is your definition of love and intimacy? What is HAI's?

HAI offers the workshops about love, intimacy and sexuality... but they don't tell you that they gloss over REAL love and intimacy in order to get to their true agenda - sex.

It takes TIME to truly love someone. It's simply ridiculous to believe that you can love all people equally and SHOULD love all people equally, including the stranger on the street and your spouse. Going to a workshop and meeting people for the first time, then being expected to be nude and touch them intimately, etc. That's not love. That's not true intimacy. That's sexual behavior.

One can SAY the word love to anyone... but that doesn't make it real.



On another note, I have recently learned that a guy who is an intern in the midwest is also rather high up in the LANDMARK scene. Oh, doesn't that just figure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 01:12AM by DayDreamer.