Ciruela -

I am puzzled by the framing in your last post. You refer to my going straight to your ex-boyfriend as if I provided him with new information. You know he was aware of your postings on this list because you and he had already discussed them so no news there. I also shared that I did not tell him anything you shared with me off-line so how was confidentiality broken?

After reflecting on some of MY comments about him in earlier posts, I felt it was appropriate for me to let him know that it was me writing (he doesn’t know the name Siofra) and why. I did not feel it was appropriate for me to speak ill of another team member on a public forum and not be willing to let him know who I was or why I was saying the things I did. I did learn a variety of things in the conversation which give a VERY different perspective on what has unfolded in his relationships with both HAI and you.

As for my feeling of being misled. I still feel this way. One can focus on different comments in different emails and come away with different impressions so either of us can select quotes to back either perspective. (e.g. One can go back through the post and look at your original framing regarding Jim Jones or when different facts such as your ex being married to someone also active in HAI came out.) There is information such as the fact your ex-partner attends all HAI events except when he is serving on team (4-6x per year) with his wife that leaves me with a different perspective on what has happened.

I did not accuse you publicly, I just shared my feeling and the choice I was making personally because of it off-line. You brought it to this forum. As for what others believe reading the thread, that is up to them, I can only share my feeling and perspective.

While I do believe in bringing negative feedback back to the organization and wanted to support you in doing so, this feels like a very personal high drama situation between you and your ex-partner which I don’t want to be involved in. He has chosen not to post on this forum although there is much which could be said that provides a very different perspective than what has surfaced so far.

I came on this thread because I thought I had something to add in sharing another person’s experience with HAI, mine as a team member. I later offered to help you bring your concerns forward because I saw a potential win-win there for you to communicate your experiences and views in a way that had potential to bring change to the organization if you were seeing things the organization wasn’t. If there are changes you want to see such as team members not dating participants under any conditions even after a waiting period, I again encourage you to bring your insights to the people who make the decisions. You can talk about it here but to get change you would have to take an additional step.

You have written that you “truly despise these people” (April 27) so your lack of trust in me or anyone else connected with HAI is not surprising. What I can tell you is that I have been truthful with you at each step, including when I told you things you didn’t want to hear about my feelings or beliefs. Stepping back, it would have been more diplomatic of me to withhold some of what I said, but I don’t regret it – because you deserved to know where I stood. You could like it or not but I wasn’t going to hide what was true for me. Some people trust others more when they see honesty of this sort, others trust less because the honesty isn’t comfortable to be around.

While I am writing, I want to apologize for misreading the spelling on your name and miswriting it. The font size is small for my middle aged eyes and I got it wrong. I wish I hadn’t.

I wish you well on all frontiers of your life including bringing changes to organizations you feel need them. Thank you for being in dialogue as long as you were.

Warm wishes,
Nan

Quote
siofra
Ciruela -

I am puzzled by the framing in your last post.

Quote

I saw a potential win-win there

Quote

I wasn’t going to hide what was true for me.

Quote

Thank you for being in dialogue

Hi Siofra, I'm not going to hide what is true for me and perhaps others on this board. I am puzzled by the framing you place upon the English language.

Are you aware that if someone who is not a 'team member' is in dialogue with you or reading your writings, it's more likely to lead to a potential win-win if you avoid the liguistic conventions you as a group have adopted amongst yourselves.

If readers have had a negative interaction with Awareness courses or groups and someone writes using a similar style, it can 'get their backs up' a bit.

It also pidgeonholes you, and doesn't allow us to see the unique viewpoint which you no doubt possess.

Such use of in-group language when interacting with people outside the group, can lead people to write you off as 'generic Awareness group member number 1300' rather than your allowing your unique individuality to shine through.

Please try and use everyday language so that I for one find it easier to understand your individual perspective.

Hope you can help,
Love
Kath

Kath-

Many thanks for the constructuve feedback. The things you identified are good reminders, yet I think I carry 60-80% of the responsibility for poor choices of words versus the problem being HAI language.

Let me offer a simple translation key for anyone interested:

I am puzzled by the framing of your last post = Your comments imply I violated you by my initiating a conversation with you ex about my on-line comments about him. Looking at my intentions in contacting him, in what I shared/didn't share and in my open disclosure about the conversation having taken place, I don't see any violation yet you apparently do.

I saw a potential win-win there (term I learned in school, not through HAI although I have heard it there too) = Given your comments, I thought both you and the HAI administration could benefit from a direct conversation.

I wasn't going to hide what was true for me = I chose to tell you what I was thinking instead of hiding it.

Thank you for being in dialogue = Thanks for talking

I really appreciate the coaching.

Gratefully,
Siofra

Well, despite her affiliation with the Human Awareness Institute, I find siofra a little lacking on “human awareness.” If you ask someone to open up to do and that person does so, and then you respond by accusing that person of lying and misleading you, then--at minimum--you are going to end the conversation very quickly.

This discussion board is not about boyfriends and girlfriends and love gone wrong. Thus, I feel that it is very inappropriate of siofra to be bringing up specifics involving me and my ex or in suggesting that my ex (if he chose to post) would have further details to refute me. That is a slippery slope. The details that concern her don’t really have anything to do with HAI or my experience of HAI, or my experience of being involved with a person who I feel has an addictive relationship with HAI, or of having a small group leader who did not deal in good faith with me.

The gentleman in question is still dear to my heart, even though we are now permanently parted. If he is reading this board, I send him my love.

Ciruela, you said "This discussion board is not about boyfriends and girlfriends and love gone wrong. Thus, I feel that it is very inappropriate of siofra to be bringing up specifics involving me and my ex or in suggesting that my ex (if he chose to post) would have further details to refute me. "


Ciruela, I understand your point of view there, but you made the incident "public" in a way by posting details about it in the first place. The fact that others choose to comment upon it is to be expected. Just because you don't LIKE the comments doesn't make the poster's opinions less valid. Granted, the discussion board is not about boyfriends/girlfriends et al, but YOU are the one that posted the initial incident, including specifics. Whether your ex has details to refute you or not, you are the one who opened the door. Others merely choose whether to knock gently, or kick it open with a battering ram.

That said... I do think that HAI has an obligation to be more careful about who they allow to be assistants and/or interns. It is a statistical improbability that ALL of them will be exemplary and above reproach, but it seems to me that the organization as a whole should do certain things to minimize risks. HAI tries to reach vulnerable people, often at the most vulnerable points in their lives - and that, to me, demands a higher standard.

I think assistants/interns should be subject to a criminal background check (and those with convictions for certain things should be denied the opportunity to serve as assistant or intern). I think they should also be required to have more substantive training and an emphasis on keeping their emotional/physical/sexual distance for a period of SIX months, rather than merely 2.

DayDreamer,

Because I respect you so much and have found solid insights in your previous postings, I accept your gently delivered constructive criticism.

In the future, I will refraim from specific mentions of my ex in my postings to this discussion board. However, that does not mean that I still don't have concerns about HAI that I will continue to voice.

I am glad to see that you and I both do agree that there needs to be more scrutiny of HAI interns/assistants and a longer waiting period before an intern or assistant can engage in sexual contact with a workshop attendee. I would favor longer than six months, however. A think a YEAR is better--simply because such a long wait would more effectively weed out any person with less-than-altruistic motives. Nobody who just wants to get layed is going to wait a whole year!

Quote
siofra
I am a newcomer to this thread (having just been told about it by a friend) but am writing to share my experience – which comes from a different perspective….I am a HAI intern.

It is not surprising to me that people have different reactions to HAI – that is true with any experience. Personally, it wasn’t a fit for me when I attended my level 1 and I didn’t come back for 3 years. After returning to level 2, it felt useful and I continued on to become both an assistant and an intern, although it took me over 6 years before I got around to completing the 7 levels. I stepped back from actively serving on teams a year ago as my personal development work was calling me in other directions.

Sorry I've been away from this thread for a little while.. but perhaps siofra can offer a unique perspective, and answer a couple questions that I have.

1) At the later levels, is there sex? I already have heard at level 3 that one of the exercises is to approach someone and ask them "Would you like to have sex with me?" I would imagine at the later levels, it would take it the next step further, especially with level 2 having various elements of foreplay already, it would stand to reason that at later levels that it progresses further.

2) Why do you personally think that the clothing must come off? Do you believe that you can have the "team building with the human race" exercises and not have to get naked for them?

3) Would you be willing to give any more details as to what may happen at a level 4 or 5? Obviously if there's nothing "wrong" going on, there wouldnt be any harm in expanding on what the natural progression is in the levels, that is of course if you can recall the details. I know i can barely remember what I had for dinner last night, much less an activity from years ago.

Apologies if my posts seem like i'm attacking the organization, but I believe that people have a right to make an informed decision about such a life-changing series of workshops.

Yay, Diashto is back. I was hoping he'd weigh in on this subject again.


I've actually heard that sexual intercourse DOES take place at Level 7. I am not surprised, really. What bothers me is the pervasive idea that this is supposedly acceptable.

Yes, it's a workshop and an organization that deals with sexuality. But one can discuss and work through the aspects of sexuality in a positive manner WITHOUT demonstrations, touching others, and openly engaging in sexual activities in front of other participants. What type of "choice" is given here? You don't have to do it? You don't have to watch it? What... you can go hide out in the (communal) bathroom or go outside or something? WHERE is the need for public sexual activity?? What POSSIBLE good can there be in encouraging people to have sex in front of a room full of people who are, at best, recent acquaintances?

Room of Love notwithstanding, I don't see the point. This is yet another reason why I firmly believe that people who participate in HAI workshops are being groomed for group sexual activity... and Level 7 is the culmination of it all.

I prefer to only have sexual contact with Diashto - the person that I am sure loves me. Those in HAI may SAY that they love me, but I find that to be a bunch of bull. It takes TIME to know and love someone, not 48 hours in a workshop.

HAI is about using "love" to get sex. Yuck.

I will be glad to answer everything I can without breaking my own agreements. I am hearing curiosity and skepticism, both of which I believe in and relate to, no apology needed. The subject is like a wet bar of soap in the bathtub since people have many different definitions of what sex is and isn’t but I will give you as clear an answer as I can and am open to follow up questions.

HAI focuses on connections between people far more than on sex, per se. I have been to non-HAI workshops that were techniques focused (e.g. tantra) or goal focused (e.g. people learning how to climax) and HAI is neither of these. HAI’s focus is on getting people comfortable with themselves and others. Sexuality is a piece but not the sole focus.

Having attended Level 2 (Loving Yourself) several times both as a participant and as a team member, I can’t think of any exercise that I would categorize as foreplay. To me foreplay has titillation as a goal and nothing in the workshop seems a match for that.

This being said, a religious conservative would look at all exercises and see foreplay in many of them. My sense of what is/isn’t foreplay comes from both the point of the exercise (e.g. is learning what your body looks like foreplay?) and my own experience with the mood of working on the exercise with a partner.

HAI refers to Sex as ‘sacred energy exchange’, it is a VERY broad definition which includes far more than what most people think of as sexual. My looking into your eyes and feeling compassion for you is sex by this definition. So, by this definition, yes, there is sex in all the workshops.

By my own sensibilities, having been active in HAI for many years, I see people making a rainbow of personal choices from my own of making pretty conservative choices to some folks using any ‘create your own exercise’ time as an opportunity to be wild with people who share their interest in being wild. What I want you to hear in my words is that there is a distinction between formal exercises and the personal choices some people make. HAI has never asked me to do any exercise I wasn’t comfortable with. (FYI - I opted out of an exercise at a non-HAI sexuality workshop that involved hand jobs so that gives you some idea where my boundaries are.)

The comments in several emails about rumored activities are just that – rumors. I will stretch my agreements to say that HAI does not have exercises which ask people to have intercourse (not even at Level 7 or Team Workshops)...it is a great fantasy but only that. As for asking each other questions…since HAI develops people’s thinking, questioning exercises can be used in many ways to develop thinking. Assumptions about where a question leads are merely assumptions.

Wondering what happens at higher levels is a source of much curiosity and much speculation. It was for me for each level. Not knowing the workshop contents is typical of all workshops I do whether they are at Omega Institute, Esalen, Integral Institute or elsewhere.

Because HAI includes sexuality in the scope it hits more of our vulnerability buttons but not knowing about the activities is the norm for personal growth workshops. My belief is that knowing would lead to a lot of intellectualizing on my part and would shift my experience of an experiential workshop. I make my decisions to sign up for workshops based on what calls to me, an organization’s reputation and my own intuition. There are tantra teachers I will not train with because my intuition has told me not to - I don't trust them to create a safe space.

Each of us feels nervous stepping into the unknown, if it feels like too big a stretch going to a workshop where activities aren’t known, I recommend you take care of yourself and not go, whether it is HAI or some other group. As I have said before, HAI isn’t for everyone and I strongly support people who say “This isn’t for me” regardless of their reasons.

As for the clothing optional question, I’ll be glad to share my own beliefs…my gut is that we act from a much simpler, more authentic place when we get beyond clothes and it is easier for others to see who we really are. I have a great wardrobe yet when I am in it you see me as a successful woman who can afford certain things. Without my wardrobe you see me at a different level, a fellow workshopper who looks tired or happy or scared. When I’m at a HAI workshop, I am less concerned about my persona and settle into just being however I am.

Regarding your comment about the clothing “must come off”, there is no “must”. As team members we are taught to support each person making their own choices around clothing. A good friend who has done a couple of HAI workshops (after years of saying “never”) takes great pride in having done her first 2 workshops fully clothed – for her that was a key step in her growth to make that choice for herself. One of my family members has made a similar choice. At most workshops (including team trainings) there are a variety of choices being made – many enjoying being naked, some sarongs, robes, underwear, shorts, sweats…Personally, I like each person figuring out what works for them, one moment at a time. Our freedom is maintained, we just have a few more options in the mix of possibilities than usual.

I laugh over your empathic comments about remembering higher levels since my memory is a sieve about these things. I just returned from participating in Level 4, however, so even I can’t plead memory on that one. Let’s see what I can tell you that is within my agreements…
Level 4 is about Spirituality and Sexuality. For me Level 4 is one of my favorites – the flavor it leaves me with is sweet and gentle. The essence of the workshop is finding our own answers to what is the difference between being in touch with our spirituality and being in touch with our sexuality. For some of us, there is a difference, for others there is not. For me, in several exercises, my partners chose to use our time together for deep conversations about their lives. I experienced gentle touch without goals throughout the weekend and had a variety of experiences that stretched my thinking about how I connect with others and how I hold myself separate.

As I indicated above, different people come to workshops with different goals, people in the workshop made many different choices. My focus in exercises is on my partner so I don't notice details about what was happening in the room. I have done level 4 several times, each time with a different flavor to it. After 6 months away from HAI workshops in CA, I went because I wanted to see some old friends and needed the support. I had a very good cry in the arms of a team member (personal stuff having nothing to do with the workshop) and felt much lighter afterwards.

Level 5 is one I don’t remember well (it's been a couple of years). It is about Control and Surrender; how we deal with getting and not getting what we want and how our thoughts shape our experience. Personally it didn’t push any of my buttons. For some of my friends, they love the workshop and claim it changed their lives radically. I guess we all have different areas we are working on. Even given the topic (which may sound scary) participants are always at choice moment by moment.

When we try to translate the HAI levels to levels of sexuality, the match is not linear. In fact some higher level workshops may feel less sexual than a previous one. With each workshop we learn some different aspects of sexuality yet is isn’t like junior high school first base, second base, etc.

The workshops are progressive but against a different foundation. It is more developmental that sexual in its progresion – I have to be able to love myself in a healthy way (level 2) before I can live life at choice (level 3). I need to be aware of my sexuality in the context of spirit (level 4) before I am up to thinking about how the world often tilts on me and how I respond to it (level 5)….

On Daydreamer’s comments about HAI’s focus on group sex. I see it differently. HAI is an educational forum about sexuality for people who are open to learning in this type of a group experiential forum. It is certainly not a good fit for many people and I respect Daydreamer’s making choices that serve her in deciding not to do any future workshops.

HAI is grooming people to find their own levels of comfort with their own sexuality, this is true. HAI is not grooming people for anyone else’s sexuality. Facilitators are typically in monogamous marriages. There are also a couple of single women facilitators. Facilitators do not cross any sexual boundaries in or out or workshops with participants. There is no waiting period – it just doesn’t happen.

What puzzles me about the discussion underway is that there are MUCH easier ways to find sexual partners – if that’s what one wants - then going on team and, frankly, going on team strikes me as one of the WORST ways I can think of…team members pay a lot each time we serve on team, we have many responsibilities which eat into our potential socializing time (e.g. cleaning bathrooms, making coffee for every break & meal, etc.) and if we do meet someone, we cannot let them know we are interested and we have to wait months to get involved. (Incidentally, there is a 4 month waiting period after level 1, not the 2 months mentioned in earlier posts.)

I see very few team member/participant connections happening even after the waiting periods are up. Perhaps that varies in different parts of the country, I don’t know, but here in Northern CA where HAI holds the largest number of its workshops, team members dating or getting involved with participants they met while on team is not very common. (Most HAI team members live pretty full lives and have opportunities to meet people in many ways outside workshops.) In my experience, when interns or assistants are looking for a new sweetie, they meet them in other parts of their lives or they attend a workshop as a regular participant so they are not in an official role and are free to get involved if they meet someone.

On HAI and love, love shows up in many ways. I love my sons and would do anything for them. That is one type of love. I care about a person injured in a car crash as I drive by and I say a prayer for them, that is another form of love. I give money to a homeless person who is lying to me - not caring about the lie, just focusing on the human need. Each of these is love showing up in a different way. bell hook's [u:dd0f4ae489]All About Love [/u:dd0f4ae489]and M. Scott Peck's [u:dd0f4ae489]The Road Less Traveled [/u:dd0f4ae489]have taught me a great deal about how we have to unlearn our definitions of love to find what love is really about.

I believe HAI is about reminding us of the choice points to be loving or not. I do not claim to love strangers as I do my sons yet my heart is big enough to find compassion, to take time to listen even when I have other things I had planned to be doing, to be there for another human being who needs something in the moment. Do I love participants, yes. It is a choice I make. How I show my love is also a choice I make. One of the ways I show my love is to treat every participant with respect and to not be the kind of sexual predator Daydreamer fears. I also show my love when I coach and mentor fellow team members. I believe we shape the world by our actions.

I hope my answers have been helpful. Please let me know if you have more questions.

Warm wishes,
Siofra

Thanks for the response, siofra.. It answered almost all the questions that I had, save one. (Apologies in advance, this post is going to get a little racy).

When I asked if there was sex at the later levels, you went into this big long explanation of what sex is to certain people, etc. Spiritual feelings notwithstanding, I'm more looking for the purely physical aspects.

Are penises inserted into vaginas (or other orifices)? Are condoms handed out at the beginning of later levels, or are you expected to bring your own if you intend to "make your own exercise"? Are the sexual organs touched in ANY way that would rate a movie with that scene in it NC17 by the MPAA (remember, scientific films are generally R due to naked but not sexual content)? Not necessarily to orgasm, of course, I'm just curious as to just how far the exercises go.

I realize that the facilitators/interns cannot flat out tell you "Its now time to have sex with your group!" however, being that you've already displayed yourself to be a well spoken, intelligent individual, i believe you would be capable of reading even the slightest hints to that regard (including the aformentioned availabilty of condoms).

A simple yes or no will suffice.