It was clearly stated in the materials we got, that it was clothing optional.

It could be that some people don't reveal it to their partners out of fear, I almost did that, and I'm very glad I didn't. I called the organizers, talked it over with them, and they encouraged me to bring it up with her up front, which I did.

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Ciruela
Over the months that passed, my partner lost interest in clubs and hobbies that he had had before getting involved with HAI. It was like a drug to him, and all he wanted was to get back to another HAI event. And this wasn't some young kid, either. This was an adult man, with a great big IQ, well educated and well respected in his field. The change in him was really shocking--and rapid.

Any organization that causes a person to lose interest in anything except devotion to that self-same organization is, to me the very definition of A CULT.

Did the organization cause this? Some people obsess on model trains or ham radio. Hell, I've had words with my wife over my involvement in CERT. (Community Emergency Response Teams), the red cross, and storm spotting (not chasing, it's different).

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Luvverly
I'm still interested in examples of what happens at L2, particularly the large group exercises since it appears from Daydreamer's and other's posts that these can be overwhelming/shattering.

There were people at out L1 who had huge life changing experiences.
Me for one..

As you know though, we did agree not to discuss the exercises, when we took the workshop. I thought that was "creepy" at first, but from the other side, I know that had I known what was coming, I would have made choices that didn't challenge me as much, and I wouldn't have got as much out of it.

Saying that you would probably have problems with L2 if you hadn't done L1 seems rather obvious to me.. Hell, they made me take CS101 in college. (if you knew me, you'd know how silly that was)

Like so many other things, it's not for everyone.
Like so many things, you can obsess on it.
Like so many things, the people who participate in it aren't all perfect.

I just don't see any evil intent in the group.

In response to dbvanhorn's question:

"Did the organization cause this? Some people obsess on model trains or ham radio. Hell, I've had words with my wife over my involvement in CERT. (Community Emergency Response Teams), the red cross, and storm spotting (not chasing, it's different)."

Yes, an individual can be obsessed--and I do think that my former partner is so now with HAI. Although, to me, it's less like an "obsession" and more like an "addiction," because he seems willing to toss everyone and everything overboard if they get in the way of him feeding his "HAI habit."

I can only observe that most of the folks he runs with now seem similarly obsessed, so I think that's a strong reason to believe that HAI itself has cult-like tendencies--the secrecy, the symbolism (the ASL "I love you" sign), the vernacular, and the implicit encouragement to prefer HAI people over non-HAI people--that the HAI community is "safe," but the ouside world isn't.

BTW, my former partner is a lifelong ham and has recently achieved a special position in the ham organization that he had wanted for a long time. Now, he doesn't seem to even give a damn about it, and I haven't heard him talking about radio in ages--it's just HAI, HAI, HAI and sex, sex, sex. He's living in HAI workshop world, not the real world, in my opinion.

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Ciruela
Yes, an individual can be obsessed--and I do think that my former partner is so now with HAI. Although, to me, it's less like an "obsession" and more like an "addiction," because he seems willing to toss everyone and everything overboard if they get in the way of him feeding his "HAI habit."

That's too bad. Personally I think it's a good organization, but everything should be taken in moderation. My wife and I like what they are doing. Until and unless we see something that counterindicates that, and as we are able, we intend to help them do it.

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Ciruela
I can only observe that most of the folks he runs with now seem similarly obsessed, so I think that's a strong reason to believe that HAI itself has cult-like tendencies--the secrecy, the symbolism (the ASL "I love you" sign), the vernacular, and the implicit encouragement to prefer HAI people over non-HAI people--that the HAI community is "safe," but the ouside world isn't.

Well, we've talked about the "secrecy" before, I see the necessity of it, and I don't see any evil intent behind it. There are a lot of people out there who have done HAI. Why is it that almost none of them have anything bad to say about it? I've looked, and found almost nothing.
The ONE fellow I did find, seems to have a problem with pretty much everything he's exposed to. For as touchy a subject as HAI addresses, as emotionally charged as that is, that seems to me to be a very good sign.
Trust me, HAI has no equivalent of the Sea Org.

Symbolism and Vernacular go with most organizations, hihi.

Now the implicit preference is something that I do see, but I see why it is that way. I do believe that the way that HAI teaches to be with others is good. Now with non-hai people, they aren't exposed to that. With a hai person, all that is already understood, and we know we are operating on the same ground rules. So it's easier with hai people. But that's the only differentiation that I'm aware of. Daydreamr and I had discussed this some time back. Now this isn't something that HAI creates, other than by the fact that they exist. Similarly, I would find it hard to talk to a non-ham about ham radio. There's terminology and non-shared experience that would be difficult to explain.


Interestingly, despite our divergence on HAI, daydreamr and I are still good friends. Because of that shared experience, I feel comfortable discussing anything with her. Even things that others would find shocking. Neither of us feels the need to "fix" the other, because we aren't broken, even though we make in some areas wildly different choices.


The connection between HAI and swinging is something that I'm looking at now. Yes, my wife and I have joined a swing club. That's not something that was promoted by HAI, or endorsed, or "pushed" in any way. But they did open our eyes to the fact that it was a real option for us.


Painting any large body of people with a broad brush is dangerous, but we are discovering that swinging is largely misunderstood by the general public. It's a lot more about social interaction, than about sex. We decided to take this path after discovering that my wife is bisexual. Post HAI, I don't have any jealousy issues over that, or any other reason to hold her back. This seems a good way to meet like-minded women. We are secure enough in our relationship that simply having sex with someone else isn't a threat.


Polyamory is something that I've always felt was right, since first exposed to the idea back in the early 70's. I just didn't know that it was "real" until recently. Discussions on a poly list led me to HAI. Why do people see love as something to withhold? A frequently used analogy is that I have multiple children, and I don't love each 1/2 strong. Polyamory, rightly done, isn't ABOUT sex, but adults in love frequently do have sex.


Rather than saying that HAI promotes these things, I would say that they don't discourage them. They encourage you to open your eyes, and really look at your options, and to make your own choices, rather than let society or anyone else choose for you.

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Ciruela
BTW, my former partner is a lifelong ham and has recently achieved a special position in the ham organization that he had wanted for a long time. Now, he doesn't seem to even give a damn about it, and I haven't heard him talking about radio in ages--it's just HAI, HAI, HAI and sex, sex, sex. He's living in HAI workshop world, not the real world, in my opinion.

That's unfortunate..
I'm still involved with CERT, Skywarn, Red Cross, Ham radio (maintaining five repeaters, and owning two, building another) plus a lot of family and family activities.

Nothing, and nobody in HAI has ever told me to discard my outside contacts, unlike scientology or other similar organizations.

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Symbolism and Vernacular go with most organizations, hihi.

Symbolism and vernacular are one thing.

The penis was put on the body for exactly two reasons: Reproduction (i'll group sexual pleasure in with this one, since one is ideally supposed to lead to another), and waste elimination. Anything that happens to it are directly related to one of those two things.. there is really no other purpose for that particular organ. The same thing with the vagina.

Now.. when people are stretched out on the floor, naked, and being instructed (and even urged) to kiss someone else's private parts.. tell me exactly which of those two it's related to?

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Interestingly, despite our divergence on HAI, daydreamr and I are still good friends. Because of that shared experience, I feel comfortable discussing anything with her. Even things that others would find shocking. Neither of us feels the need to "fix" the other, because we aren't broken, even though we make in some areas wildly different choices.

This may come as a shocker to ya, dave, but MOST of the time she doesnt want to hear about it, regardless of how comfortable you are talking about it. Especially the intricate details. We've had several discussions about that.

As you've already mentioned, there's alot of stuff that you wouldnt talk to somebody about if they werent in HAI, because they "wouldnt understand"... but what about the people who would, and have decided they don't want it anymore? A minority though they may be, they still deserve consideration.

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Well, we've talked about the "secrecy" before, I see the necessity of it, and I don't see any evil intent behind it. There are a lot of people out there who have done HAI. Why is it that almost none of them have anything bad to say about it? I've looked, and found almost nothing.
The ONE fellow I did find, seems to have a problem with pretty much everything he's exposed to. For as touchy a subject as HAI addresses, as emotionally charged as that is, that seems to me to be a very good sign.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe they were afraid of some sort of legal problem. Even the best organizations always have some people who think they're hacks, their customer service sucks, etc. When someone agrees to keep things "confidential" they're lead to believe that if they dont, there will be some sort of reprocussions.

My question to you.. if HAI is so gosh-darned wonderful... why arent we seeing "human interest" stories on the news programs every 6months or so.. or advertisements on things other than swinger's websites (granted, the links are placed there by the participants, not HAI, but still)?

Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT), which this seems to be can be quite problematic and has a history of problems.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is an analysis of an LGAT by a clinical psychologist.

Here are some his core observations and concerns:

13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.


They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.


They lack clearly defined responsibility.


They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.


They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.


They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.


They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.


They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.


They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.


They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.


They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.


They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.


They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions. (1969, p. 13)

The groups were determined to be dangerous when:

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.


Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.


Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.


Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

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diashto
Now.. when people are stretched out on the floor, naked, and being instructed (and even urged) to kiss someone else's private parts.. tell me exactly which of those two it's related to?

#3, getting over your fears, if any, of touching and being touched in that way. In this setting, you know that the person you're working with is not going to progress past your boundaries, and all you'd have to do is simply stop, or otherwise signal "enough".

Phrasing it in the manner you did, made it more of a "have you stopped beating your wife, answer yes or no" sort of question.

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diashto
This may come as a shocker to ya, dave, but MOST of the time she doesnt want to hear about it, regardless of how comfortable you are talking about it. Especially the intricate details. We've had several discussions about that.

"We" in this case meaning you and her, I suppose, as "WE" have never spoken on the matter, and this really isn't the appropriate place for it.

And while reading this, I'm checking with her in IM, and although you make it seem like I've deliberately crossed her boundaries, she assures me I have not. She knows that she's responsible for expressing boundaries, as much as I am for not crossing them once they are expressed. From what she's telling me in IM, the statement above does not represent the situation.

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diashto
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe they were afraid of some sort of legal problem. Even the best organizations always have some people who think they're hacks, their customer service sucks, etc. When someone agrees to keep things "confidential" they're lead to believe that if they dont, there will be some sort of reprocussions.

Well, scientology can't keep their critics mouths shut, and they DO have some very nasty people involved in that department. I'm what they'd call a "supressive person", and go google up "R2-45" or "Fair Game Policy" for an example of what they consider to be proper treatment for people like me. I've been glad to assist in getting the "Xemu" story out to the public, and getting people who wanted out of scientology, out of it. I risked some very real retaliation.


I have to conclude that if people aren't talking on that score, it's because they have nothing to say.

HAI's about as "fluffy-bunny" as you could get. They simply asked, verbally, that we respect the confidentiality of the workshop, and not discuss the exact exercises. I honor my commitments. If I thought someone were being harmed, that would override.

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diashto
My question to you.. if HAI is so gosh-darned wonderful... why arent we seeing "human interest" stories on the news programs every 6months or so.. or advertisements on things other than swinger's websites (granted, the links are placed there by the participants, not HAI, but still)?

Because HAI is absolutely abysmal at self-promotion?
If it's so awful, why are we not seeing "investigative journalism" expose' stories about it?
I can't think of an easier group to infiltrate.
Scientology for example, specifically runs a "sec-check" on people, using their "E-meter" (sort of a lie detector).


Now you've made it clear that HAI is definitely not for you.
Nobody's trying to change that. I'm not trying to convince you, nobody from HAI is calling you up trying to convince you... Why the animosity?

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The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

You just described pretty much every christian church in our vicinity.

dbvanhorn:

These criteria have nothing whatsover to do with churches.

This is a paper about LGATs.

That would be large group awareness training.

That is not a meaningful response to the paper.

Is this what you consider dialog or discussion on a message board?