Regarding the responses to my post from dbvanhorn and DayDreamer, all I can say is that I truly disagree--I don't think it's OK for HAI interns to be sexual with workshop participants after ony two or three months. I think that's totally reckless and potentially psychologically damaging. I know for a fact that some of the men who are workshop counselors are motivated to be there because they want to sniff out potential sex partners--one of them as much as told me so.

What I do agree with is Kath's comment:

"Daydreamer said everything I was going to say:)

It's a swinger's club, or a dating agency for those into 'alternative lifestyles.'
Love
Kath"

HAI is most definitely about SWINGING and also encourages bisexuality (which is OK, if that's what you want, but both gay and straight participants find it a bit unnerving sometimes, when you are asked to kiss the genitals of a same-sex or opposite-sex partner that you've just met to do an exercise with).

Bottom line, if you are a committed, monogamous couple and wish to stay that way, DON'T ATTEND HAI WORKSHOPS! I can't think of anything that would destroy a monogamous relationship faster, because--as far as I can see--the choice of monogamy is not considered valid or desirable among the HAI community.

In many ways I agree with you. I am no longer participating in HAI because of some of those very issues. I was not involved in a relationship with anyone when I attended L1 and L2, and I'm glad I wasn't.

Many of the people there are into poly relationships (both straight and bisexual), and I am simply not comfortable participating in that. Although they SAY that my choice is to be celebrated, blah blah blah... the fact remains that the subtle pressure to conform to the "correct choice" (i.e., what they espouse) is still there. I've even been told that monogamy is unnatural, and that polyamory should be celebrated. I'm all for loving more than one person, but when it comes to spending my LIFE in a committed relationship... that means ONE person. If others are content with playing musical beds, etc., that's fine for them - but please don't expect me to participate.

I was going to do a private post to DayDreamer, but I'm prevented from doing so until I have had 10 approved posts. Thus, I'll just say what I have to say to everyone.

DayDreamer, I just reread your post of 03-24-2006, and I must say that you've described perfectly what I feel about my own experiences with HAI. I won't quote you, because I'd be tempted to quote the entire post--you really hit the nail on the head with everything you said.

I also attended L1 and (despite initial trepidation), I got a lot out of the experience. L2 damn near drove me nuts, and--like you--I did things that I would probably NOT be willing to ever do again. Also, like you, I suspect that I could have gotten more out of the experiece than I did, however, in my case, I would say that the more shocking group exercises in L2 really fried me emotionally and left me with no energy for the self reflection/self knowing exercises done individually in the small groups. Those small group exercises were probably of greater value than the large-group exercises that I found so upsetting. One thing that I find odd about HAI is that there really isn't a lot of emphasis on being alone with yourself and gaining understanding through a reflective process. Instead, it's group exercise after group exercise after group exercise. It's organized cruising, in my opinion.

My situation was somewhat different than yours, however, in that I feel that I lost my partner to HAI, and I admit that I am grieving that loss very much. My boyfriend was attending HAI workshops when I met him, but he seemed to have his life in balance. However, about a year ago, he became a HAI assistant, and that's when the trouble started. Suddenly, our weekend schedule (we lived in different states) had to be coordinated around HAI, because basically, if ANY HAI workshop was happening, he made it clear to me that he preferred to be there, rather than with me, even though he wasn't necessarily required to devote that much time. In essence, he told me that our relationship had to take a backseat to HAI.

This past January, he became a HAI intern, which requires a larger time commitment. Increasingly, he was unhappy that I wasn't enthusiastic about HAI, and he became (in my opinion, of course) quite obsessive in his engagement with HAI--basically, if there was a HAI workshop, party, or support group, he was there. As this happened, I really came to question that HAI was about love at all, despite their constant emoting of "I love you" in their workshops. My boyfriend claimed he loved me, but increasingly, I became expendable if I interfered with HAI or questioned HAI's principles and practices, which I certainly didn't consider very loving. He told me that I was too distrustful and that I could trust ANYONE in HAI without hesitation. As I looked around at this group of people, I felt very much the opposite!

Over the months that passed, my partner lost interest in clubs and hobbies that he had had before getting involved with HAI. It was like a drug to him, and all he wanted was to get back to another HAI event. And this wasn't some young kid, either. This was an adult man, with a great big IQ, well educated and well respected in his field. The change in him was really shocking--and rapid.

Any organization that causes a person to lose interest in anything except devotion to that self-same organization is, to me the very definition of A CULT.

Your paragraph about Level 2 really hit home for me. I hadn’t thought about it in those terms before, but your words made sense. I write when I have things that I need to work out, particularly emotional things. But Level 2 was so completely overwhelming for me that I couldn’t write about them, couldn’t talk about them, couldn’t even THINK about them. It was so much sensory overload that it took well over a week before I was calm enough to try. I couldn’t even begin to do the self-reflection exercises and I still have a hard time with that, and I attended in November. You’d think that six months would be sufficient, but that’s simply not the case. Not for me, at least.

My small group consisted of a male intern, another woman, and two other men. One of the men was the husband/SO of the woman. The other man was someone who had attended Level 1 at the same time I did, with his girlfriend who was also at this Level 2 and in a different small group. This other man and I bonded in what appeared to be a VERY strong and powerful level. It actually caused quite a bit of jealousy with his girlfriend, and she was rather snippy about it after the second day (when it became noticeable). The intern actually approached me on Saturday night, and reminded me that L2 is supposed to be about self-discovery. He was happy that there was someone I was bonding with, but he was concerned that the closeness that we shared would be detrimental to my own self-discovery. I scoffed at the idea, but in a way he was right. During the entire workshop, that man and I spent every available minute together and talked about things that I’d never shared with others. He had already been through all seven levels, more than once. At any rate, what it came down to when it was time to leave was… he wanted to discuss the relationship with the GF on the way home, and end it. He wanted to come spend a few days with me when he was attending a seminar (he’s from another state) and explore a relationship with me. He wanted me to call and/or email him EVERY day, as he needed to feel our bond. He told me all the things he wanted with me, and the things he wanted to do with/to me (sexual and otherwise) and asked me to tell him the same things. In email, I kept my word. I told him what I was thinking and feeling and some of the things I’d like to do – an extension of things he said to me. He promptly forwarded all my emails to his girlfriend. It turned into a monumental mess. I was embarrassed, humiliated, and betrayed by someone I trusted and felt strongly bonded to.

After Level 2, I not only had to deal with all of the feelings caused by this betrayal, I also had to deal with the normal “after a workshop” self-reflection. That was probably a good part of the reason it took me so long to process my reactions and conclusions about the Level 2 experience. I know that I would never feel safe in a workshop environment if that man or his girlfriend were present – and I know they will be. But that aside, trusting MYSELF at a workshop would be difficult. The workshops foster a false sense of security and well-being – and it is DEFINITELY false. Granted, there are some real friendships that form as a result of HAI workshops. But in my experience, the negative was overwhelmingly more obvious, and brutal. Your point about the inability to trust people in HAI is very telling to me, as I feel the same way. I not only distrust the motives of the other participants, facilitators, and interns/assistants, I also distrust myself. I have been burned badly by the experience, and I think I’d let it colour my perceptions of other people and that would not be fair to them. I know there are honest and genuinely loving people in HAI, and I know I’ve met many. The problem is that I am apparently unable to separate them from those who abuse the system.

The people who created this program know what they're doing. This is Landmark for the genitals.

> HAI is most definitely about SWINGING and also encourages bisexuality
> (which is OK, if that's what you want, but both gay and straight participants >find it a bit unnerving sometimes, when you are asked to [i:db70f8f2ff]kiss the >genitals[/i:db70f8f2ff] of a same-sex or opposite-sex partner that you've just met to >do an exercise with).

Is this really true? I did level 1 (here in the UK) and found it intriguing and fairly harmless. I was thinking of doing level 2 but if that's the kind of thing you're asked to do then, hmmm, probably not for me! If anyone has any info or perspective on what you're actually asked to do in level 2 I'd be grateful. I'm wondering if the workshops have changed in recent years maybe, from when some people experienced them....

One of the many things i've heard several times is that "They make it feel okay" by gradually pushing the boundaries.. first you are around people that are naked, and after a certain amount of time, its assumed that you're comfortable.. then you start touching.. and towards the end of the workshop, you're almost willing to caress and kiss the genitalia of the same and opposite sex.

Yeah, that occurs at level 2. Granted, its not supposed to be a sexual thing.. but come on.

This sort of activity doesnt happen at level 1... because of course they dont want to scare off people. At level 2 they assume (rightfully so, since you cant go to level 2 without it) that you've been through a Level 1 and you're comfortable with everything that happened there.

Thanks for the reply - hmmm, yes, that does seem more than a little disingenuous to say or imply that playing with someone else's genitalia is not supposed to be sexual. I have no problem with people doing that if that's what they want to do, but it does disturb me if it is presented as anything other than arousal. Those bits of the human body are there for a reason, and (apart from the bodily waste disposal element!) they are designed to be touched for sexual purposes, pure and simple. To pretend otherwise is just at best wrongheaded and at worst manipulative.

The HAI habit of giving out little detail in advance is also it seems to me more than just to ensure the exercises have impact through the element of surprise. I believe it is dishonest to procure someone's time and money without adequate warning of the type of content - I was irritated for instance by the fact that in advance of level 1 nobody even hinted to me about the clothing-optional feature that is such a big part of the workshop. Something doesn't sit right when something so basic is deemed "confidential".

Now, the clothing optional element of Level 1 was disclosed beforehand by more than one source. It's something we were expecting, and I don't think that ANYONE at our Level 1 was surprised by it. Of course, nudity was not required... but it was definitely encouraged. At L2, people were nude SOONER (Friday, rather than Saturday afternoon). I chose to remain clothed, and was definitely a minority in that regard.

In response to Luvverly.... I did my Level 1 in August 2005, and my Level 2 in November 2005, so these were very recent. The Level 3 is coming up in July, and is the first Level 3 I'd be eligible to attend. HAI Midwest (Michigan, USA) only does a Level 3 and other higher levels once per year, probably due to cost.

To clarify, MOST people at my L1 were obviously expecting to take their clothes off, it just struck me as a curious omission that myself and three or four others had not been told. Perhaps HAI assume (and that's a big assumption since you may have come across them via their website) that whoever recommends it to you will mention it? (in my case the person didn't)

I'm still interested in examples of what happens at L2, particularly the large group exercises since it appears from Daydreamer's and other's posts that these can be overwhelming/shattering.