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Rswinters
During the training that I went through in this last week on The Genesis Process.

We covered Neurochemistry and how it affects brain by looking at some scientific data on brain chemistry.

For me the part that stood out was the aspect of Serotonin and how it affects the brain chemistry and what emotions are affected by this chemical.

I used to take Zoloft for about 5 years and got to a place that it was no longer needed and my doctor had me stop taking it.

That was about 8 years ago. What was brought up and really hit me in this part of the training. Serotonin is a chemical that is released in the brain to suppress emotions.

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AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes.

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The Genesis Process is an integration of Biblical precepts for personal change, proven relapse prevention techniques, cognitive therapy principles, and the latest neurochemistry research relating to human behavior. For the first time in history we can answer the question "Why do we do the very thing we don't want to do"? (Romans 7: 15-23)

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Posted: 08-13-2007 06:00 AM Post subject: Other experiences

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It was a cold morning- I arrived at the venue and after handing over my details was quickly ushered inside and made to sit on a hard bench closer to the person next to me then I would have liked.

The music started playing and we all stood up and waited as a man walked down the isle and took up his place on the podium.

He started off on a tirade about how we were all not Awake or Alive and that only by following the set of rules and participating would we gain the key to a better life. I was astounded. How dare this man tell me that my life was worth nothing. Who did he think he was?

I made up my mind then and there not to set foot in that place again. I got up and left.

The very next day I had three phone calls from the church asking me why I left mid sermon and would I like to have someone pray for me? Also they were having a bake sale the following sunday and could I spread the word around?

Now this may or may not have happened

The point is .. doesn't it sound ALOT like the LGAT methods?

to me it does.

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Where do you think they (LGATs) learned them?

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Con artists are constantly learning from each other.

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yes, mauxi, it does sound a lot like the LGAT method, but, did you have to pay $500 for the priveledge?

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Where is the links to what this church believes? Where is the information for an informed decision on this church versus just hearing you give your second hand account of this church.

You may not be giving a fair evaluation of it as you are not giving any links to what it believes, or is doing in our society.

I would prefer to have you give links for me to make an informed decision on my own after reading any and all available information.

Remember to give information for us to read, before you make such attempts at sarcasm as this is obviously in regard to the topic of Genesis Process and using SaneAgains sarcasm as a means to create this fictituous church, and thread.

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Rswinters, it was a parody, not a real church. It WAS sarcasm, from Maxui.

Moderator, Rswinters is on a personal crusade against me because I am not a christian. That is religious intolerance. He has flamed me here on the Genesis thread, and has made personal comments about me on the Impact thread.

He has also promoted christianity and christian programs here, on the Genesis thread, on the Klemmer and christianity thread and on approximately ten other threads.

He has provided links to totally irrelevant topics, such as Creationism and a christian addiction rehab program.

He is demonstrating gross religious intolerance and practising christian evangelism.

Rswinters, you are making a fool of yourself and putting christianity in a very bad light. Get a grip, for goodness sake.

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The same can be said for your posts SaneAgian. You have been trying to dominate with a belief that faith and science are not the same.

Which is a belief, and is not proveable just as Faith and science are the same.

So stop with the attacks and then state how your declaring this about me.

All the while showing up with it about a belief that is opposite in nature.

It is just as much a religious belief to have your perception as I have mine.

You have showed up doing exactly what you are stating I am doing.

Apply the same requirements that you are demanding of me onto yourself. Please.

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SaneAgain wrote:

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Rswinters, it was a parody, not a real church. It WAS sarcasm, from Maxui.

Funny how the concidence of this so called parody is matched to the time frame of Saneagians attacks on the Genesis thread.

You say parody, I say intentional sarcasm to bash me and my posts.

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Sarcasm by its very nature is intentional.

Look its quite simple - I am not a Christian nor will i ever be again.
I detest organised religion. for me, its opium for the masses.

but if it works for you then awesome- I am glad that you found something that enriches your life and allows you to produce results in the world.

I have no agenda other then to put forward my experiences and views

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Same here. All I ask is to be allowed to share equally.

Especially in regards to faith issues without being attacked. As this is allowed equal space then I will not address those posts that attack faith without proving the validity of this view either.

So if you want to address posting in a equal shared manner on these to opposing views that have just as much evidence in support of each other their. Yes, there is just as much scientific proof on either viewpoint.

Science has many contradicting viewpoints within the world of science.

All I am stating is to stop being the science police by demanding for one view to be proved for posts to be dissallowed demandinng for the scientific evidence to be looked at. While the opposite claims are made and making grand statements about how there is all this undeniable evidence without producing it for all to see. While not holding the same standard on your posts that express a viewpoint of anti faith and science as only being true.

Show up with what your demanding and this debate well be over. Otherwise I will continue to stand for equal right to share about faith and science elements in my post.

Lets see if this site is biased or not in what comes of my stance.

I hope it is one of not being biased.

But, I will let the chips fall as they need to on this matter.

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Hi

Simply because I detest organised religion does not mean I deny the existence of a creator.

in fact I would say that for me there is no doubt that I was put on this planet by a higher power to serve a specific purpose. A purpose that I now know and holds true for me.

and Science actually provides the proof of that.

to state my beliefs briefly
"Live your life in Love, humility and in service of others"

That is My truth and it echoes the words of great teachers like Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed. All of whom I revere very highly

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Thank you for your post. Now allow for my faith to be my faith as well. Which is just as supported by scientific evidences as well.

See we can share opposing views without bashing another by either politeness, or abrasiviness.

There is a balance. Thanks for giving us an example of how you share your faith, and how you allow for my faith to be shared.

Thats what I am talking about.

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It was never my intention to bash your faith. If what I have said was perceived as such I take responsibility and apologise.

for me the church didn't work i found it hypocritical and controlling however I would never presume to tell you that your faith is without merit.

again for me it is about usefulness. If an idea - correct or not - is useful in living your life in a manner that produces results then adopt it and live a better life. the church was not useful for me. if it is for you then I am glad

again have a good day my friend

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Thank you. Although it is the other person who gets to state when offended.

Thanks for allowing yourself to take the responsibility for it. That gives me much respect for you. Even though we disagree on many points of view.

I also apologize for needing to stand up to posts that are not showing this level of respect as you posted here.

So, on that note. I will look at how I have been posting and take the needed responsibility on my end in learning to be civil in a disagreement.

I do apologize for my intensity on matters. I do recognize the need to tone myself down on matters of this nature.

Have a good day as well.

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Even though I disagree with Matt' post here on many points. He does make a solid point that I am in agreement with.

This forum does go to far to the ohter extreme in judging things.

I am not guiltless, as well as matt is not guiltless as there is not an approach that addresses the damaged folks from these LGAT's such as me.

Yet, I do not want to be as arrogant as this post is being in not addressing the overall impact of LGAT's and looking by declaring how it works for me and thats that.

There needs to be a blend of sharing that allows for all views to be posted, and allowed in a manner for everyone to make a informed decision without being told what to think, or not think.

So, on that note. I agree with matt in part here, and disagree with matt in other parts.

Mainly in how these LGAT's do not screen out participants that are dealing with emotional damage that the LGAT will aggravate and cause the person to self destruct in trying to apply a philosophy that is extremely damaging to a already emotionally damaged person.

I can't go to a place of saying how it would affect a healthy person emotionally.

All I can use is myself as a reference point, and the people that I saw in my 2 year of 3 seminars, and a 4th one that had two mini weekend seminars with a 6 month long enmeshing the beliefs into my daily life to go on.

I did see many other emotionally disturbed people in my experiences in these seminars as well. I saw others making emotionally destructive choices as well during all these seminars.

The LGAT kept grinding in the aspect to only look at myself, and what I was experiencing only.

Which in my opinion was to keep me from being aware of the overall picture of what was happening to participants lives.

So, matt. I am glad it works well for you. Yet at the same time I agree to disagree with you broad statements made about how good an LGAT is just because you are making it work in your life.

But, at the same time. I will also not hound you to the ground in how wrong your view is here.

Readers will read all the posts on this forum and draw there own informed decision after reading them.

Including your posts in support of them.

So, thanks for deceptively manipulating a topic thread where you can turn obvious lean towards a negative judgement against this forum in your attempt to be supporting an LGAT with a very tactfull manner of using the negative on this forum agianst itself as you did here.

Your a sly one. But I have to had it to you. You used the tactic of an LGAT facilitator in doing so.

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You speak of slyness and subtlty
a skill you possess in abundance it would seem

the first few lines of your post I was smiling thinking to myself hey - this guy isn't so bad after all - we disagree on a few things and thats normal - if we all agreed we wouldn't need a forum to discuss things.
then it turns out you were baiting me.
lulling me into a false sense of security to then take advantage of me in a most insidious manner

I put it to you that You, my friend, are the cunning one.

can't we all just get along?

also as far as I can remember Leviticus 19:18 "love thy neighbour as thyself"


Practice what you preach my friend. That is integrity and I didn't need a workshop to work that one out.

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Seeing your self in a mirror are we?

Funny how you can twist things to your benefit. You must be a skilled communicator that can manipulate people very well...

I will pass on your definition of integrity. It is just another way of saying manipulation of another person...

Your the one who began with being conniving here. Not me.

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sigh*

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

If you feel manipulated I apologise, it was never my intention

Have a good day my friend

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you are very gifted at the use of language to your advantage.

show up conniving, point out others failings, then go back to being conniving.

This is definitely the two faced LGAT mindset that I have learned to hate in its participants.

Have a good day to you to my friend.

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To whom it may concern:

Stop the personal attacks.

This thread is devoted to the LGAT "Quest."

If you have something to say specifically about that LGAT please feel free to comment.

Otherwise, start another thread.

This message board is not for preaching, debating theology or religion.

Read the rules.

Preaching is prohibited.

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...While I support your idea that the very nature of the discussion topic here is contentious, it need not be a personal attack or go so far as to make someone feel stupid or feel that their opinion is not as valuable as anyone else's. The Golden Rule has nothing to do with any of your arguments - its how you go about arguing them..., in my opinion, that Damaged may be addressing...

...We're all here to expose LGAT's and educate people who come here to learn about them.

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Passionate. I am amazed... I actually agree with you 100 percent...

Which in the past has not been the case.

But on this point. I can't agree with you more...

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If your opinions are not strong or potent enough to brave this apparent "lack of niceness" tone, it is my opinion that hearing them is not necessary, simply for the fact that, notwithstanding criticism, you don't think they are important enough to be heard or that they cannot withstand scrutiny. So it comes down to either people withhold what they have to say for fear of criticism, or I hold back what I want to say for fear that I will be criticized for being critical.

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I may be responding out of my own frustrations from another topic thread where a member must hold the same perception.

Although I disagree with this mindset. It is a black and white, all or nothing approach that means that one view point dominates another by sheer force of how it is argued.

I believe there is a balance in the middle. I am a staunch allie in exposing LGAT's. Yet there is a tolerance in me for those who come on here and post in favor of LGAT's when it is done in a manner that allows for both views on LGAT's to be allowed and to let a reader decide what to believe.

I have posted very strongly agianst LGAT's myself. I am not perfect as I have failed to be this in some of my posts. I can justify my failure by my being so hurt in my experience with Klemmer.

Although, I try to find a balance which is difficult to accomplish at times. Because I must allow for opposing views to be shared along with my views without being so arrogant as to shut down any and all opposing views to my own.

Doing that on this website will keep it a very good tool for those to read about LGAT's such as Impact. Yet there needs to be kept in mind that if this forum tips to far to one side of opinions. Then it becomes a extremely biased site without the ability to be used as a way to make an informed decision on matters such as an LGAT.

So, we need to allow for views to be shared that oppose us. While we do need to scrutinize content of posts. We need to allow for views to be shared when they are shared in a way that is allowing for a reader to decide what to believe.

We cross the line when we decide what a reader should believe or not believe.

I may be responding to my frustrations on another topic thread. If so, please allow me to fail forward in my working out my emotions from the interactions that I have recently had on this forum.

They have not been good, and I am heavily considering removing myself from this forum altogether.

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Stating how there is a tolerance while deep sixing any opposing view is not tolerance it is domination.

I can't even say I am guiltless in this. I have reacted with extreme emotion at times that crossed this very line of tolerance to domination of my own views.

Yet, it doesn't mean this is not a valid point of view to have in making our posts on this site. Along with how we interact with those who post in opposition to the dominant views of this forum.

Because when it all comes right down to it. every single thing shared on this forum is a viewpoint.

Mind you, there are some view points that should be challenged, and some should be opposed strongly when there is not an allowance for there to be freedom for both views to be aired and letting the reader make an informed decision on matters.

Even though I am with everyone on exposing LGAT's. We need to be careful not to place ourselves in the arrogant stance of not being open to other viewpoints shared.

This is my biggest issue with an LGAT mindset. Because it goes to an extreme of shutting down opposing viewpoints by refusing to allow for an opposing viewpoint to exist in interacting with them.

I would hate to see this forum turn into the very same thing that I despise in LGAT's and how they interact with me.

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What is so black and white? How can I decide what a reader should believe or not? This is an OPEN forum, and I am not a moderator. Anyone can post whatever they want. Anyone can read and give or take what they want. Newsflash RS, this IS an extremely biased site!!! CULTS/LGAT's/DAMAGING, CONTROLLING GROUPS are BAD. Isn't that why you have come to this site? You more than anyone else on these boards has posted a biased and negative standpoint against LGAT's. You said, “So, we need to allow for views to be shared that oppose us. While we do need to scrutinize content of posts. We need to allow for views to be shared when they are shared in a way that is allowing for a reader to decide what to believe.” Well, you are still talking about controlling how content is shared RS.

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After reading this, I wanted to ask you, why are you on this website, RS? Is it because you want to hear how good Brian Klemmer is? Or how his associates can help people despite your damages? Or are you mad as hell? How in gods name could the rick ross website and these message boards EVER become anything like an LGAT? How much have you paid to post on here? How many times have you been lied to and humiliated on these pages? How many times have you sat in a darkly lighted room where people yell insults at you since you began posting on the Rick Ross website?

The problem here is that if you want to stop someone from discriminating someone else, you have to discriminate against that person. Why would you want to discriminate against your ally? Someone who shares your viewpoints and empathizes with you?

This “grey area” you speak of is still a grey area to me. You never get clear on how to strike that “balance”, you only express a belief in one. Essentially, you want to have your cake and eat it too.

It is infuriating to me that I have to justify what I have written on these pages when I am merely doing what these pages were intended for. I am in opposition to the mindsets, philosophies, methods, strategies and unethical behavior utilized by the Impact Trainings and LGAT’s in general. And yet another page on the thread is wasted…

I have had it. I will post exclusively on Impact related issues from here on out. When my personal "thoughts" and "feelings" are warm and fuzzy, only then will I post them...

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ExImpact. I am on the team of exposing LGAT's. I am not on the team that views faith and science as seperate.

I will call into account the contradiction on this matter that exists on this website.

If I am not allowed to remain because of this view.

So be it.

I just ask for the same standard to be applied to all views. Even are negative analysis of things.

Biased yes, but biased towards what needs to be biased agianst here.

LGAT's such as Impact, and Klemmer are what we need to be biased agianst.

Not a persons faith.

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If you are referring to my responses to hopefulsoul's posts, I invite you to look again.

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I addressed not Hopeful’s faith, but rather their assumption that their belief mirrors what ALL Mormons believe. I have done nothing but championed the unique problems Impact poses for it’s mormon clients. But when someone says something religious and there is a response that contains something other than reverent acceptance, all of a sudden I am an unreasonable, HARSHLY judgemental bastard. It seems that some people are confusing criticism with personal attack. This is an error in judgment.

Besides, if someone can post their religious beliefs, should not the same courtesy be extended to those who do not, or even “gasp” have anti-religious sentiment? Free speech goes both ways my friend, and censorship is a two edged sword.

Besides, it’s not like anti-religious sentiment is a foreign topic on these forums. Have you been to the destructive churches or the actual “cults” pages? Compared to what some people are allowed say there, the criticisms that have been voiced on this board could be seen as fluffy bunny talk.

I don’t have to be a Mormon (anymore) to know and respect the culture and the theology. Nor do I think that religious belief is above scrutiny or conversation. In fact, if I were to be honest, I could tell you why I believe certain types of Mormons as well as other religious types to be exceptionally susceptible to the manipulations of the Impact trainings, but I have withheld MY contributions in that vein for the very reasons that have shown themselves on the last few pages on this board.

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Rswinters was not referring to Hopeful Soul's posts, he was referring to a debate on the Genesis Program thread. His faith - science comments have nothing to do with Impact and do not belong here.

Rswinters, if you want to have a debate about religion go back to the geneis program thread where you started the subject, and answer my questions, without resorting to personal attacks and mis-quoting.

Have some respect for other people on the board by not filling up other threads with your campaign against me and your paranoia about christianity-bashing on this board. Have some respect for other people's religions, faith, belief and opinions.

Every time you claim that you have scientific proof of christianity you are implying that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taosm and a host of other religions as well as atheism are wrong. If you want to debate it, fine - but not on this thread. exImpact & co have enough problems trying to deal with the all the trolls and apologists here without having to waste time replying to your off-topic messages about your religion, as ex has just done.

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To whom it may concern:

Read the rules again for this message board.

This is not the place to debate religious issues, theology, science vs. religion etc.

This thread is about an LGAT called "Impact."

Please do not attempt to change the subject, focus and/or purpose of this thread.

Preaching beliefs is not the purpose of this message board, as stated in the rules, preaching is prohibited.

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Per Ricks request that he has posted.

I take responsibility for my part of the huge debate that has taken place between SaneAgain and myself on several threads.

It was a hot topic of faith and science. It got ugly on both sides.

I am sorry for posting in connection to this argument that got out of control between us.

I will keep posts on this thread to Impact, and or how Klemmer & Associates are similar which have been welcomed in the past.

Please keep the belief on faith from any angle. For or agianst in check as they are all beliefs that can be taken to a religious level in either one of these views.

As long as this rule is applied equally to both views of belief? I will be trying to follow rules as requested.

When there is a contradiction and it is not being followed by another religious viewpoint. I will oppose even to the point of being banned if necessary in challenging it.

So. Impact. I am back on track to expose this and all LGAT's.

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SaneAgain wrote:

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Every time you claim that you have scientific proof of christianity you are implying that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taosm and a host of other religions as well as atheism are wrong. If you want to debate it, fine - but not on this thread. exImpact & co have enough problems trying to deal with the all the trolls and apologists here without having to waste time replying to your off-topic messages about your religion, as ex has just done.

Please follow Ricks rules, and stop this on your end as well.

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Rswinters wrote:

have agreed to disagree with Ricks stance on Faith vs. Science as he stated one is based on facts while the other is based on belief. I strongly disagree and will not remain on a forum so biased as this.

Since this is an impasse that will not be resolved. I have informed Rick that I will remove myself from this forum. There will be no need to be banned by him.

I have gained much from this forum as I have been recovering from my LGAT experience.

I will refer people to this site for information on LGAT’s while informing them of the biased stance on faith issues.

It has been a pleasure knowing you all. Have a nice life and may God richly bless each and everyone of you.

Good bye
Rswinters

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Rswinters:

OK.

Sorry, but the Ross Institute is an educational nonprofit, not a religious nonprofit.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

Note that the definition of a "cult" is based upon behavior not belief.

Also see [board.culteducation.com]

In bold black the rules for this board state explicitly, "The purpose of this forum is not to promote a specific religious or political viewpoint and/or to proselytize."

Members of this board may believe whatever they wish, but not preach about their beliefs here according to the rules.

It should come as no surprise that science is objective, based upon facts, whereas faith is subjective, based upon feelings.

Sorry to have this discussion on this thread, as the topic here is not religion, faith vs. science etc., but rather an LGAT called "Impact."

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Rswinters

It has been a pleasure knowing you all. Have a nice life and may God richly bless each and everyone of you.

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"elena... And the marriage of the prevailing power structure with some belief system is nothing new, rather sadly predictable as any of these ancient skeptics could have foreseen the tragic pairings of Bush and his buddies with the ultra-religious right. I highly recommend the program to anyone curious...[/quote

Please follow the rules that are posted... I copied this from a posting from Rick. This is a theoligical matter that is best not discussed on this forum...

Remember theology has two sides and both need to be dropped.

Thank you.

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To whom it may concern:

This is not a place to discuss religious beliefs and theology.

That is stated in the rules.

No preaching, no proselytizing and no promotion of religious programs.

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Rswinters1

Please follow the rules that are posted... I copied this from a posting from Rick. This is a theoligical matter that is best not discussed on this forum...

Remember theology has two sides and both need to be dropped.

Thank you.

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Rswinters
We covered Neurochemistry and how it affects brain by looking at some scientific data on brain chemistry.

For me the part that stood out was the aspect of Serotonin and how it affects the brain chemistry and what emotions are affected by this chemical.

What was brought up and really hit me in this part of the training. Serotonin is a chemical that is released in the brain to suppress emotions.