Quote
Hope
I wrote....."The ad for The Mankind Project was on Craigslist. I posted a reply warning[b:ffec02f8fc][i:ffec02f8fc] people interested to ask lots of questions[/i:ffec02f8fc][/b:ffec02f8fc], [i:ffec02f8fc][b:ffec02f8fc]to be cautious as the seminar agenda sounded a lot of like Landmark. [/b:ffec02f8fc][/i:ffec02f8fc]"

Frank - can ya read???? Why be defensive about telling people to ask lots of questions. I've done the Forum, the founders of MKP are esties, so it is highly likely that MKP has it's foundations in est\Landmark. If people have gotten burned in est or LEC, there is a good possibility MKP is more of the same. Their "technology" is so apparent, and their goal for taking back masculinity pretty much says it's, again, a one size fits all diagnosis for all attendees.

Sorry 'Hope', I do agree with you, people should always ask questions. I was ONLY addressing this comment:

"There were just some words that jumped off the page - integrity, authenticity and commitment. And the weekend seems to be structured like Landmark\est. The info talks about doing shadow work in the weekend seminar. "

It seems that since I quoted your whole post my response came across as a little too broad. It's the 'I heard words like...' that is an indicator to me that maybe someone is drawing a conclusion based on a generality.

When we assign pre-defined 'meanings' to groups of words makes them so that they can't be used by ANYONE to convey some different concept or mood. That is how prejudice and bigotry is formed. I"m not saying that is YOU, it's just an observation.

I am not here to 'defend' MKP, far from it. I observed that quite a few people get positive experiences from the weekends and pretty much NEVER go to the 'I-Groups' afterwards because they don't really need the group. It seems to me that a group that has SOME MEASURE of positives shouldn't be attacked at 100% 'bad'.

Yet, that seems to be what is done here. I thought I would attempt to put some balance here. Obviously got off on the wrong foot! :oops:

So wouldn't it be more 'balanced' to discuss the things that they are doing that you don't like, or you think are 'harmful' and ALSO point out that there are many positives that result from the organization? Then people can make up their own mind?

I personally didn't see any of the 'extreme' things I've heard mentioned and the many people who have posted saying their 'sane friend' who suggested they go said that it was great for their attitude must be seeing SOMETHING GOOD, right? Otherwise why would so many people like myself who didn't go to 're-integration' and DO NOT go to I-Groups and have no more involvement after the weekend suggest it to others?

I went about 7 months ago and I met many men at the weekend who are intelligent, educated and as cynical as I am. They were pretty much with me when it came to poking fun at some of the things that were said or done, they do seem a bit silly to us at the time. Yet ALL of them felt that they had made a connection with themselves that was missing for a long time during the weekend.

We weren't starved, humiliated coerced or sleep deprived. We ate alot of granola and apples and yes we had to take a cold shower one morning.

All I've seen on the net are either 'MKP is 'great' groups OR 'MKP is evil groups'. MKP is going to BRAINWASH him! run away! run away! Then I see hysterical responses from women who are terrified their men are running off to become another 'Jim Jones' fanatic. How does that help anybody? It makes the people who went and had a good experience feel bad and the nervous women whose men went feel terrified they will lose them.

Is it not possible to discuss the GOOD and the BAD?

Maybe by telling all sides and all views men can make an informed decision? There must be SOMETHING GOOD that those of you who had a man go to MKP, or who DID go to MKP got from it that was POSITIVE. Just one thing?

Here, I'll start:

I've already said some positives that I got from the group. I'll agree with some of the comments that yes, it is a little bit 'EST' like and also that their 'warriors journey' is something that would probably be better done with a licensed counselor or psychiatrist available for the few men who were a little too fragile to deal with it. Whether that makes them 'bad' or 'evil' is questionable. For me, to be 'bad' means they deliberatly set out to control people, to take over their lives. Neither I nor the several other guys I know saw that. It was JUST a weird but interesting weekend retreat. What happens with you and the group AFTER the retreat is the choice of the individual. Most people I knew didn't even show up for the 'graduation'. It wasn't that exciting.

Their WAS a licensed psychiatrist at my retreat who was a participant and we had a short talk about the whole weekend at the final dinner. His observation was that there were some instances where more progress was made with some mens issues there than he could have made in months of counseling with him. He felt that a weekend like that followed by good counseling could make quite a difference for many people. That was HIS opinion.

Quote
glam
From his consistent misspellings and obvious use of language patterns/same old lame defenses/ad hominems, I'd make an educated guess that it's our old friend Tex/Conway/Leibnitz/PaulKeith/ConcernedSister/LoveBunny/Etc. again. Guess he's bored over at AFL, since so many of us ignore him now. Can't get the rise out of us he once did.

Sorry Glam, I'm just frank. I was looking for more information on what else MKP might be doing and I found this website and some others. I was amazed at the level of anger fear and vitriol being experessed toward the group AS A WHOLE and no room for anyone who had a positive experience to give their opinion without being shouted down.

I felt that it would be worthwhile to post that there are actually those who DID have a positive experience and didn't get 'brainwashed' and we don't put the group on a pedestal. For me anyway, the experience was worthwhile.

I wrote my posts rather quickly and didn't take the time to do all my spell checking. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll try to do better. I wouldn't want to be mistaken for someone you don't like.

--

As far as the secretiveness that is questioned a lot, well, if I had heard what was going to happen ahead of time the I probably would have said "oh, this is sooo stupid, you gotta be joking? I won't do THAT!" which is pretty much what anyone would say. If that's the case then there has to be some 'secretiveness' or most men wouldn't go, and would not get the opportunity to POSSIBLY benefit from the experience.

College fraternities and FreeeMasons do NOT tell people what their rituals are either. Yet MKP is demonized for their actions.

The name of this forum is "Cult education forum - Large group awareness training, Human Potential Seminars". So far what I have seen in these MKP threads is 'MKP Bashing' or 'education of the negatives', not real education. MKP doesn't qualify as a 'cult' as defined by the dictionary or any other reasonably qualified source like the Wikipedia - [en.wikipedia.org] because they do not ask you to worship them or their ideal. Nor do they ask you to gve up your life or your identity.

They may be weird, there may be some people who take them a little to seriously, there may be some leadership issues that we don't agree with. But 'evil' and 'cult' are not words I would use to describe them.

If that were the definition, then our government, the leftists, and the neo-cons would be 'cults'. (actually, sometimes I think they are.)

Looking forward to real discussion about MKP.

thanks

frank

Quote
rrmoderator
frank_d:

Please offer something here other than put downs and would-be flames.

Your comments are no better than what you criticize.

Fair enough. I should take the high ground instead of playing the 'tit for tat' game.

I think that something like 'scoffing at the "little boys playing at being men"' is a 'put down' and 'would be flame'. But I don't write the dictionary that is in use here. However, I will make sure I respond to comments like that with more gentleness and discussion.

Quote

MKP is an LGAT (large group awareness training) just like Lifestpring, Landmark and Sterling..... This link details coercive persuasion techniques, many of which are repeatedly reported to exist and to be used within LGATs......The difference between MKP and other LGATs is the content, not the structure and dynamics....This thread is filled with material that exhibits the manipulation and controlling contrived nature of MKP....

I agree that it is a type of LGAT, but the term has only been assigned a negative connotation.

And while this thread is "filled with material that exhibits the manipulation and controlling contrived nature of MKP" I think MUCH of the material is an extremely NARROW view of MKP. I would raise the question - Is it MKP AS A GROUP that is manipulating or is it some INDIVIDUALS that MAY be misusing their positions within MKP (if indeed that is actually taking place at all?)

If it's individuals then it can be addressed and MKP can evolve and grow. I"m sorry but I've read their materials, gone to the retreat and I don't see MKP's 'goal' of manipulation, or possibly world dominance, in any of it. If you go to a weekend you either participate or you don't. When you leave at the end you go home and live your life. If you want, you hang around with the other men you made friends with, or go to I-Groups. Or you don't.

I didn't. Nobody gave me grief about it. Nobody pursued me, harassed me or anything. I got one call asking me how I was doing and if I was interested in I-Groups. I guess I feel left out that I wasn't 'mind controlled'. I have plenty of money, nobody asked me for any.

There were a lot of big Bad-A$$ guys at the one I went to, and they were constantly ridiculing some of the things we did. Yet they didn't leave and at some point some of them each struck a nerve or found an emotional issue they had been hiding from themselves. They all thought the retreat opened their eyes to their lives. None of them (including me) went on to anything more with MKP.

I ask this question: Is it not POSSIBLE that MKP does more good than it does 'perceived harm'? Is it not POSSIBLE that MKP DOES do some good and that is was founded for that purpose?

Quote

It isn't "bigoted" to raise questions, scrutinize and even criticize a group or organization. And you don't need to "experience" a group to critique it, any more than you need to attend Klan demonstrations, or march with Nazis to understand the general thrust of what they are doing.

In my opinion it is bigoted to draw a pre-conceived opinion based on views and opinions of others who have not experienced MKP. Why do I say 'pre-conceived'? Because the majotiy of people who come to these groups have already 'decided' that MKP is 'bad' and are looking for corroboration. Occasionally there are those who are on the fence and all they get here is negatives. How is that 'right' or 'fair'?

Klan? Nazis? How do groups that preach HATE figure in to a discussion about MKP? If your point is that we can tell 'who they are' by reading their literature or listening to their speeches then I can agree. I read the MKP literature and they 'seem' like good and decent people. Did I draw the wrong conclusion? I then went on their weekend retreat and they STILL seemed like good and decent people (although some were a little weird, but not any weirder than other people I've met in my life)

Quote

Besides, there is enough information here from MKP to understand the content, dynamics and details of its LGAT retreat.

Yes there is and it's very informative. You've done a really good job and you come across as very knowledgable.

What's lacking in this forum is balanced discussion about MKP and the POSITIVE experiences of other people who went to the retreat.

Quote

If you have come to the message board to flame you will be banned per the rules you agreed to. If you want to participate dialog and post something interesting other than insults and attacks against others that post here.

I hope my posts are 'interesting' then! :)

After my husband's weekend, he was bombarded with calls. He told each one he did not want to attend I-group. He was questioned as to why. He must have received 5-6 calls in a 3 day time span. He finally told the last caller he did not want to receive any more calls, period. If and when he felt he wanted to attend more meetings, he would call them.

They did finally respect his wishes. He receives at least one general email a week about one of their activities. He simply deletes them.

Not everyone had a good experience as you had. There was a man here who posted his son committed suicide 2 weeks after his weekend. There has been one death during carpet work I have heard of.

If you research my early threads, you will see what happened at my husband's weekend. This is what made him decide to not have any more involvement with MKP.

I recently discovered a yahoo group from the Board of Directors of our local group. This group was not set up as private, so anyone could read there. They were doing fund raising work. They spoke of how they had gone to the tax appraisal board of our county (also a major US city), listed the men's names based on highest property value in dollars, so they could try to get more money from the wealthier members. When some of the board members were uncomfortable doing this, they were told they needed to work on their "money shadows".

I posted this on another group. This group has men from MKP who monitor what is being written about them. They promptly removed this yahoo group from being public. A very pro_MKP member on this other forum (not the rickross site) did not believe me. I posted the website. He came back and apologized to me. He was so angry that this organization he so believed in would do this. He wrote the BOD a letter. He posted his letter, and the response he received from this board member. He was even more angry at the response ge received.

If you got something from your weekend, then good for you. Just know this, not everyone has that experience. Not every MKP group, just lets you simply walk away, without putting a lot of pressure on you.

Again, go back and read some of my previous posts.

Quote
what2do
After my husband's weekend, he was bombarded with calls. He told each one he did not want to attend I-group. He was questioned as to why. He must have received 5-6 calls in a 3 day time span. He finally told the last caller he did not want to receive any more calls, period. If and when he felt he wanted to attend more meetings, he would call them.

They did finally respect his wishes. He receives at least one general email a week about one of their activities. He simply deletes them.

I can see how you would be annoyed. I wonder if that has to do with the 'zealousness' of his particular regional membership organization? Like I said, nobody has called me to solicit anything. If they do I will post. It's been 6 months since my weekend.

Quote

Not everyone had a good experience as you had. There was a man here who posted his son committed suicide 2 weeks after his weekend. There has been one death during carpet work I have heard of.

I COMPLETELY understand that there are those who did NOT have a good experience. My main point is that it doesn' mean the organization, as a whole, is bad.

Quote

If you research my early threads, you will see what happened at my husband's weekend. This is what made him decide to not have any more involvement with MKP.

I did. I think your husbands AA sponser should not keep pushing him to go. HE sounds obsessive, which is not uncommon in 'sober' people.

The post where you say in the sweat lodge the facilitator said it was ok to 'reach over and grab your "brother's" d**k.' Is disturbing. I would be upset if I were there too. I have to say that in our weekend the sweat lodge was a place of peace and reverance. Because this is the only time I've ever heard this posted I don't think it is 'policy'.

Which again, is my only point. Is it right to condemn a whole group because you don't like some of the people or things that they do? I don't like pedophile priests but I don't condemn the Catholic church members. I condemn the INDIVIDUALS.

Quote

If you got something from your weekend, then good for you. Just know this, not everyone has that experience. Not every MKP group, just lets you simply walk away, without putting a lot of pressure on you.

Thanks for the civil discussion. I wonder what percentage of the local groups do have some over-zealous members who pressure others? I do NOT think it is the norm. I DO think the MKP project has positive goals.

I think the only true goal they have is money. This entire organization brings in a lot of money. It goes somewhere. This is why I equate MKP to Landmark, Lifespring, Scientology, etc. They all speak of the good they can bring to a person, after that person pays a lot of money.

Since you brought up pedophile priests, I am not Catholic, but I do blame the Church for much of what has happened. The Church as a whole protected these pedophiles. If they had taken action, many children could have been saved from the horrors that happened to them. I believe the leadership of many of these groups, including MKP, set the tone.

You feel you got something, good. You are very wise to take what you got, and gone on down the road. There have been many who have posted here that spent years, and much disillusionment, before getting out. Some have almost lost their marriages. I would highly discourage any man from attending. That is how strong I feel about them.

Frank
I'm glad you got a lot out of your experience. I agree that it may be beneficial for some men. I would caution against equating the NWTA which you participated in with MKP. As you caution against people posting who have not "experienced" the MKP, you as well have not experienced MKP, only the training adventure. The goals may be laudable but the nuts and bolts of MKP takes place in the I groups at the local level and thus the implementation of these goals are subject to the individuals in that local area. That may mean caring, healing work or it may mean potential for abuse. You had a good experience, but others on this board have not. To me it's like trying to convince someone to like sushi, If you don't like it, I can't convince you that it tastes good and vice versa.

Quote
what2do
I think the only true goal they have is money. This entire organization brings in a lot of money. It goes somewhere. This is why I equate MKP to Landmark, Lifespring, Scientology, etc. They all speak of the good they can bring to a person, after that person pays a lot of money.

Some of these groups you mention almost force their members to give them 'titheing' (a percentage of income, Mormans do this). None of them to my knowledge give out scholarships to the needy so they can participate. In my weekend there were about 4 people who were there on scholarships.

Quote

Since you brought up pedophile priests, I am not Catholic, but I do blame the Church for much of what has happened. The Church as a whole protected these pedophiles. If they had taken action, many children could have been saved from the horrors that happened to them. I believe the leadership of many of these groups, including MKP, set the tone.

I don't think you mean to say that the congregation members were at fault, do you? That's what my posting is making the comparison to.

Quote

You feel you got something, good. You are very wise to take what you got, and gone on down the road. There have been many who have posted here that spent years, and much disillusionment, before getting out. Some have almost lost their marriages. I would highly discourage any man from attending. That is how strong I feel about them.

I understand.

Quote
feldspar
Frank
I'm glad you got a lot out of your experience. I agree that it may be beneficial for some men. I would caution against equating the NWTA which you participated in with MKP. As you caution against people posting who have not "experienced" the MKP, you as well have not experienced MKP, only the training adventure. The goals may be laudable but the nuts and bolts of MKP takes place in the I groups at the local level and thus the implementation of these goals are subject to the individuals in that local area. That may mean caring, healing work or it may mean potential for abuse. You had a good experience, but others on this board have not. To me it's like trying to convince someone to like sushi, If you don't like it, I can't convince you that it tastes good and vice versa.

Wow. I think you hit the nail on the head. Well said.

I think I may need to go to an I-Group and see how people handle these kind of questions.

It sounds like we agree on something - It isn't all bad or all good.

Like any organization the potential for abuse is there. Now I'm wondering if these issues are 'new' things that have happened as the organization has gotten bigger and more men who may not have the same agenda get into positions of responsibility? Overall I still get the impression that the group is more good than it is bad.

thanks

frank

There is lots of information on the Yahoo site (ex_mkp@yahoogroups.com)
Its a cult, nodoubt!

Quote

Some of these groups you mention almost force their members to give them 'titheing' (a percentage of income, Mormans do this). None of them to my knowledge give out scholarships to the needy so they can participate. In my weekend there were about 4 people who were there on scholarships.

Does anyone know if MKP has a "general rule" as to how long a person is in MKP before they start asking for a "tithing?" I know someone who at his NWTA weekend, as they were getting ready to leave, everyone was talked to about donating, how important it was etc. They were then asked to choose an amount that they were willing to donate, monthly etc.