upsidedownnewspaper. I did not post to attack you here. I posted your post because it really did answer my questions I had around your post you made.

It helped me understand where you are coming from.

Hopefully you will understand where I am coming from too?

No problem. No offense intended or taken!

You are researching Scientology and have decided it forms the fountainhead of all subsequent LGAT forums.

Counter to this, I think this is just an idea promoted by Scientology in order to garner the feeling of exclusivity and importance. I think you may be falling into the trap of thinking Scientology promotes something other than a closed, exclusive social circle.

The philosophical ideas promoted by Scientology do not belong to Scientology, nor LGAT technology belong to LGATs. The ideas have been around for centuries.

It is nice we are both able to state our opinions in this forum. I won't dog you with arguments in future...I just had something I wanted to say to your previous post.

Not sure what happenned in your interpretation of what I have stated in these posts, and we don't need to dog each other on the differences.

I researched out the Scientology angle that I felt was there, and gave my conclusion on my research. Which by the way is in agreement with what you are saying.

There was a few leaps you took on what my views are in this post that are inaccurate.

What the bottom line for me in all this is finding a crappy philosphy that has been floating around for who knows how long. It has been grabbed by different people over the years and tweeked to suit their greed, and need to develop whatever business model, or cult that they create from it.

Scientology/dianetics did have a strong influence upon the key LGAT founders back in the 1960's. Along with something called Mind Dynamics which I need to research out further.

But, the base philosphy is what I have been looking at in my research.

I am dissecting the philosphy. You can dissect the business model.

That's a good place to leave it on my end. Well that work for you?

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upsidedownnewspaper
No problem. No offense intended or taken!

You are researching Scientology and have decided it forms the fountainhead of all subsequent LGAT forums.

Counter to this, I think this is just an idea promoted by Scientology in order to garner the feeling of exclusivity and importance. I think you may be falling into the trap of thinking Scientology promotes something other than a closed, exclusive social circle.

The philosophical ideas promoted by Scientology do not belong to Scientology, nor LGAT technology belong to LGATs. The ideas have been around for centuries.

It is nice we are both able to state our opinions in this forum. I won't dog you with arguments in future...I just had something I wanted to say to your previous post.

What are the ideas behind scientology?

I tried to read Dianetics once but found it unreadable. I have a category I put certain books in based on what I feel it is doing to my brain. I call it "mindf***ing. Dianetics went into that category very quickly.

Another thing associated with Scientology is auditing and the more auditing you do the higher up the pyramid you go.

Is that pretty much it?

Don't quite understand how all that constitutes a religion; maybe somebody can help me out with that.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also see [www.culteducation.com]

The second Time article pretty much sums it all up.

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gondolf
What are the ideas behind scientology?

[www.bonafidescientology.org]

This is a link to an official Scientology website where it gives a very lengthy detail of its doctrine.

As I have been reading it myself. I find many, many similarities in the philosphy of both as a former graduate of all Klemmer & Associates seminars.

Yes there are differences, but they are very minor in my opinion. The major aspects of both of the philosphies in my opinion are ringing the same bells in how it is sounding.

There are some who disagree with me. Yet, this is my opinion, and I am seeing a very strong influence from either Scientology on Klemmer, or at least the philosphy that Scientology is based on has been taken by Klemmer and placed in its foundation as well.

As you will see in reading in detail on this website. Klemmer & Associates is a Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) company which says they are unique. But as I as many others are discovering. There is not really any uniqueness amongst all the LGAT companies that are being discussed on this website.

Including how most of seminars are almost carbon copies of each other. With different window dressings to make it seem like there are differences.

So, read away, and dig, dig, and dig.

I would say that Scientology fits the definition of a racket to a tee.

Auditing is obviously the scientology version of heroin or crack.

How come Rico has never been used to go after the Church?

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gondolf
I would say that Scientology fits the definition of a racket to a tee.

Auditing is obviously the scientology version of heroin or crack.

How come Rico has never been used to go after the Church?

HuH? I am lost in what your saying here. Would you say it agian, in more simple language for me. I am sorry, but can't figure out what you are stating here.

Rs, Rico is a set of laws used against the mafia, for racketeering i.e. mafia business like fraud.

Rswinters and upsidedownnewspaper:

Your discussion about philosophy vs business model has got me thinking about Noam Chomsky and his book "manufacturing consent". His basic theory is that in an authoritarian state the rulers control the media and use blatant propaganda and censorship but in a democracy this is not possible. So the powers-that-be control public opinion by creating an "illusion of choice" and "illusion of freedom" in the media. It seems anyone can say anything but the media ownership is centrally owned and because of the business model of the media the owners have specific financial interests (business and political) that they protect and pander to. He also describes a set of filters that occur throughout the system, for example reporters learn that if they write stories that go against the status quo their stories won't be printed and they won't be promoted. Leaving aside obscure internet sites this can be seen in the numbing sameness of all the news channels and newspapers in the western world, where they all run basically the same stories with only superficially different analysis and angles.

The analogy I'm seeing in lgats is that in authoritarian societies people are tortured and brainwashed using force to comply with the ruling philosophy or dogma. In a free society that is not allowed, so people are covertly convinced to spend their own money on propaganda and brainwashing, and part of the brainwashing is that everything they do is of their own choice. Once again, an illusion of choice. The lgat and "the secret" philosophy is perfectly designed to support the capitalist world: live in the present moment; instant transformation and the promotion of "abundance" - you can be, do or have anything you want (and never mind the price, the universe will provide) - and promotion of the individual over the community. Its emphasis on accepting things and being responsible for everything in the world (you can't change the world but you can change yourself) also supports whatever the status quo is; it encourages narcissistic power-mongering or neurotic introspection rather than political or social activism.

What is my point? I don't know... I don't have one yet, I'm just writing down some thoughts in the hope they'll add up to something, or that someone else will else will spark a connection that I'm missing - or point out that I am full of BS on this fine day! As usual I don't see a conspiracy, I'm only trying to understand the connections, if they exist.

To get back to the business model vs philosophy debate - I don't think its either, I think its a combination of the techniques (covert manipulation) combined with a supporting philosophy and business model - that is what makes an lgat. Each of those three elements have been used in isolation throughout history, I'd agree, but the combination in most of the lgats does seem to be traceable back to est/scientology and mind dynamics, which packaged up the philosophy, techniques and business model.

The other place all these techniques are used is in religious conversion and ecstasy processes - I'm thinking of the ancient greeks (if I remember correctly) in "The Jesus Mysteries", describing secret initiations into gnostic inner secrets of the church, where initiates were whipped and insulted as they walked the streets on their way to the church for initiation. That was probably the beginning of the breakdown, which continued in the church, followed by a euphoria and build-up and initiation process. I'm guessing. After the initiation the initiates were all enlightenened and said it was wonderful but could not tell their friends the details. Rings a few bells for me...

Scientology seems like a criminal conspiracy to me. In my opinion it uses fraud and extortion to entice people to be involved, and then threatens and squeazes them if they resist or want to leave or complain. The purpose is to make money. It uses front companies and hides beyond "religion," which it isn't at all. It also attempts to influence wealthy and powerful people to its cause and uses high priced lawyers to defend it.It sounds like the mafia.

Under the RICO act - Rackiteer Influenced Corrupt Organisation Act - it should be possible to prosecute the so-called Church of Scientology because if only two of 45 possible charges can be directly linked to the ongoing activities of the organisation then prosecution is possible.