Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Jack Oskar Larm
()
Date: July 10, 2007 12:19PM
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: July 12, 2007 04:14AM
The murders in Australia was committed by a 25 year old woman, who is the daughter of scientologists who were opposed to her taking anti-psychotic medication. She murdered her father and sister and stabbed her mother. There is debate over whether she was or was not on medication but it seems clear that her parents at least were opposed to her taking it:
[www.news.com.au]
I am looking for reports that state the history of the woman's involvement in scientology herself - did the parents bring her up under scientology beliefs or was she herself ever involved? The reason I want to know is that there are a many reports of scientology causing psychosis, so I don't think its a coincidence that there is a psychotic person in a scientology family - unless the family turned to scientology in the hope of finding a way to deal with someone who was already psychotic.
Scientology has its own special treatment for psychosis, called an "Introspection Rundown". This is interesting because most churches don't need special techniques to handle psychotics as they don't create them in the first place.
[www.scientology-lies.com]
I can't find the link, but in another article I read that the purpose of the rundown is for the person to introspect until they have a realisation of what their problem is. I can't remember the term, but it was similar to the Landmark 'racket' concept - lock the person up until they own up to their racket. This is abominable cruelty.
So. There is another element of lgats that seems to have its roots in scientology.. the tendency of the processes to cause psychosis. That, and the need to introduce waivers and release forms to absolve them of responsibility for their methods.
After the Lisa McPherson lawsuit, Scientology introduced this release form for members:
[nightlight.typepad.com]
The xenu site has another definition:
[www.xenu.net]
This article describes how scientology may cause psychosis; very interesting because most of it applies to large group awareness training as well:
[everything2.com]
Some excerpts:
This is the best description of lgat and quest training I've seen yet, even though its talking about Scientology.
[www.news.com.au]
I am looking for reports that state the history of the woman's involvement in scientology herself - did the parents bring her up under scientology beliefs or was she herself ever involved? The reason I want to know is that there are a many reports of scientology causing psychosis, so I don't think its a coincidence that there is a psychotic person in a scientology family - unless the family turned to scientology in the hope of finding a way to deal with someone who was already psychotic.
Scientology has its own special treatment for psychosis, called an "Introspection Rundown". This is interesting because most churches don't need special techniques to handle psychotics as they don't create them in the first place.
Quote
While on the Introspection Rundown, the individual is held in isolation, prevented from leaving, and given the silent treatment by those guarding him or her. We know the most about the way the Introspection Rundown was run on Lisa McPherson, a Scientologist who died in Scientology's custody. Lisa was physically held down, force fed, and given prescription sedatives that were illegally prescribed. Since an important part of Scientology is always doing things the same way and in accordance with policy, it's likely that the Introspection Rundown has been fundamentally similar for others who have undergone it.
[b:9bea438b85]How is the Introspection Rundown dangerous?[/b:9bea438b85]
The Introspection Rundown attempts to treat serious mental illness by methods that have not been medically tested, typically carried out by people with little training of any kind and thoroughly inadequate medical training. Force-feeding an uncooperative individual present a serious risk of causing choking. The lack of contact with outsiders and complete secrecy from oversight greatly increase the risk of harm to the individual. Finally, depriving the person of verbal contact can cause further emotional trauma.
[www.scientology-lies.com]
I can't find the link, but in another article I read that the purpose of the rundown is for the person to introspect until they have a realisation of what their problem is. I can't remember the term, but it was similar to the Landmark 'racket' concept - lock the person up until they own up to their racket. This is abominable cruelty.
So. There is another element of lgats that seems to have its roots in scientology.. the tendency of the processes to cause psychosis. That, and the need to introduce waivers and release forms to absolve them of responsibility for their methods.
After the Lisa McPherson lawsuit, Scientology introduced this release form for members:
Quote
Scientologists now sign a contract permitting the organization to treat them with these methodologies. The "Agreement and General Release Regarding Spiritual Assistance" states that
"Scientology is unalterably opposed, as a matter of religious belief, to the practice of psychiatry, and espouses as a religious belief that the study of the mind and the healing of mentally caused ills should not be alienated from religion or condoned in nonreligious fields ... all mental problems are spiritual in nature ... there is no such thing as a mentally incompetent person-- only those suffering from spiritual upset ... I reject all psychiatric labels ... (and) desire to be helped exclusively through religious, spiritual means and not through any form of psychiatric treatment, specifically including involuntary commitment based on so-called lack of competence ... If circumstances should ever arise in which government, medical or psychiatric officials or personnel or family members or friends attempt to compel or coerce or commit me for psychiatric evaluation, treatment or hospitalization, I fully desire and expect that the Church or Scientologists will intercede on my behalf ... I understand that the Introspection Rundown is an intensive, rigorous Religious Service that includes being isolated from all sources of potential spiritual upset, including but not limited to family members, friends or others with whom I might normally interact."
The contract goes on to indemnify the Church of Scientology from legal action as a consequence of what may happen during an Introspection Rundown.
[nightlight.typepad.com]
The xenu site has another definition:
Quote
Introspection Rundown, a therapy for handling psychotic breaks in the cult. Involves locking the person up to prevent bad PR with the isolation step, also called baby watch. Sometimes instilling such wacky ideas as Xenu, Body Thetans and OT III can make people a bit unstable; the IRD is used to contain people when they flip out.
[www.xenu.net]
This article describes how scientology may cause psychosis; very interesting because most of it applies to large group awareness training as well:
[everything2.com]
Some excerpts:
Quote
After an individual is hooked by a bait and switch come-on, Scientology uses exercises that covertly put the receiver in hypnotic trance. The purpose of covert trance induction is to increase the subject's suggestibility and to control the subject's resources. These techniques are derived from traditional hypnosis and from cult rituals used to produce fanatical loyalty from the inititation rites of past secret societies.
These coercive control techniques alone could explain the many reports of psychosis and suicide in Scientology...
...Hubbard boldly experimented with first generation Russian and Korean brainwashing processes on unknowing members under a cloak of "religion." His innovative experimentation helped produce a second generation of thought reform and mind control techniques. These new methods are considerably more dangerous than their first generation predecessors. While developing what Scientology calls its secret L-12 initiation, Hubbard allegedly said that if the initiators performed this rite incorrectly you might as well build a pine box for the individual receiving it.
These second generation thought reform programs are commonly called "coercive persuasion" in the courts. In United States v. Lee 455 U.S. 252, 257-258 (1982), the California Supreme Court found that:
"when a person is subjected to coercive persuasion without his knowledge or consent... he may develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide."
...The goal of all coercive persuasion programs is to produce target compliance and control of the target's resources by holding the target at a point of maximum psychological stress, without inducing psychosis. Unfortunately, the second generation coercive programs have increased the chance of error because their targets tend to be less well monitored, and the advanced techniques used to induce stress are more powerful and less predictable in their effects upon individuals.
In coercive persuasion programs, the main attack is done through frequent and intense attempts to cause a person to reevaluate the most central aspects of their experience of self and their prior conduct in NEGATIVE ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms. These tactics are engineered to induce the individual to reinterpret his or her life history and to adopt a new (often irrational) version of causality.
...
In these secret initiation levels, to more effectively attack the person's core concepts of self, Hubbard's methods trick the person in trance into believing he is not who he always thought he was. To fragment the individual's personality and integrity on order to facilitate better initiate control, Hubbard induces a hypnotic state of multiple personality similar to an artificial schizophrenia. Many observers report Scientologists switching "personalities" dramatically and abruptly.
This is the best description of lgat and quest training I've seen yet, even though its talking about Scientology.
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 12, 2007 12:31PM
I tell you. The more I research, and the more I dig.
I see LGAT's as being second generation Scientiology that has emerged from the influence of Dianetics in our society.
I see LGAT's as a byproduct of Scientology on a few dynamic individuals who saw ways to make money off of this philospy.
This is just a hunch.
I see LGAT's as being second generation Scientiology that has emerged from the influence of Dianetics in our society.
I see LGAT's as a byproduct of Scientology on a few dynamic individuals who saw ways to make money off of this philospy.
This is just a hunch.
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: July 13, 2007 05:52AM
Yes, its definitely heavily influenced by Scientology. The question is whether it really is only a case of people like Erhard 'stealing' the
'technology' or a behind-the-scenes arrangement with scientology to sell the same crap to people who don't want their scientology delivered through a church, either because they have other religions or because they are anti-religion.
The other thing at the base of lgats is mind dynamics, and behind that The Silva Method, you might want to look at those. The Silva Method promises to help you "manage stress, lose weight and... develop esp". Lifespring and Asiaworks do esp exercises, Quest teaches esp covertly. Then at the end of the Silva method web page a grand old questie phrase: "Make a difference in your life and the lives of others."
[www.silvamethod.com]
I think its more of a virus than a conspiracy.
'technology' or a behind-the-scenes arrangement with scientology to sell the same crap to people who don't want their scientology delivered through a church, either because they have other religions or because they are anti-religion.
The other thing at the base of lgats is mind dynamics, and behind that The Silva Method, you might want to look at those. The Silva Method promises to help you "manage stress, lose weight and... develop esp". Lifespring and Asiaworks do esp exercises, Quest teaches esp covertly. Then at the end of the Silva method web page a grand old questie phrase: "Make a difference in your life and the lives of others."
[www.silvamethod.com]
I think its more of a virus than a conspiracy.
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Jack Oskar Larm
()
Date: July 13, 2007 06:09AM
Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) is a general term that has its roots in pre-history. It's a technique and/or curriculum that has always been popular with the training of soldiers. Apparently, Roman centurions were subjected to sleep deprivation to better indoctrinate them. And I could imagine other 'suitable' uses for LGAT techniques used to 'equip' legitmate* groups.
Scientology is certainly a potent force in today's LGAT climate, but, like any religion or cult, there are and will always be numerous derivatives (I'm not suggesting I know what the original is).
And the prime ideology in any commercial venture is money (and in the Christian Mythology, there's a good quote about that one!)
LGAT's may not sell used-cars or hair products, but there's less than one degree difference in their 'mission' statements - IMO.
* legitimate in this context means any group that has no choice, ie armed forces, police, students, club members, etc, etc.
Scientology is certainly a potent force in today's LGAT climate, but, like any religion or cult, there are and will always be numerous derivatives (I'm not suggesting I know what the original is).
And the prime ideology in any commercial venture is money (and in the Christian Mythology, there's a good quote about that one!)
LGAT's may not sell used-cars or hair products, but there's less than one degree difference in their 'mission' statements - IMO.
* legitimate in this context means any group that has no choice, ie armed forces, police, students, club members, etc, etc.
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 13, 2007 09:18AM
[quote="J* legitimate in this context means any group that has no choice, ie armed forces, police, students, club members, etc, etc.[/quote]
You may rethink this part. I was in the US Marine corp and even though it can be said I had no choice in how it was used on me in this context.
LGAT's are no different. I joined the Marine Corp (my choice and was not drafted).
I paid for Klemmer & Associates seminars being told up front it was not psychological, and it was. Yet. I signed waivers and attended all of them.
The choice part was the same in both. I challenge anything different.
LGAT's deceive and get you into seminars without being informed about them. I know that I could have dug deeper in my pre attendance research just as I could have done with the Marine corp.
So, if you are decieved into something because the company, or branch of service did not disclose with honest answers what is involved in their techniques.
Is this true choice? Or do I dare say a victim to deception?
I am just calling a spade, a spade here.
Can a person truly have true choice when there is such deception?
You may rethink this part. I was in the US Marine corp and even though it can be said I had no choice in how it was used on me in this context.
LGAT's are no different. I joined the Marine Corp (my choice and was not drafted).
I paid for Klemmer & Associates seminars being told up front it was not psychological, and it was. Yet. I signed waivers and attended all of them.
The choice part was the same in both. I challenge anything different.
LGAT's deceive and get you into seminars without being informed about them. I know that I could have dug deeper in my pre attendance research just as I could have done with the Marine corp.
So, if you are decieved into something because the company, or branch of service did not disclose with honest answers what is involved in their techniques.
Is this true choice? Or do I dare say a victim to deception?
I am just calling a spade, a spade here.
Can a person truly have true choice when there is such deception?
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 16, 2007 09:02AM
It seems that I have hit a fork in the road on my research. Where I am at in my research is back where Scientology/Dianetics, EST, and PSI was birthed at. Which seems to be around the 1960's. Funny as you think about it. Look at all the bizarre things that where created, and established in the 1960's that has eroded our society and its moral fabric to what it is today. This is just my opinion here.
Anyways. It seems that there was a base philosphy floating around back then. Which each one of the ones listed chose to take off in different directions. Yet similar in overall philosphy in how it was talked about.
Kind of like you may say Orygun, and I say Oregon in how you pronounce this word.
I really don't see much difference in the overall aspects of the philosphy held by each of these groups.
The one aspect that can be definitely seen in researching, and digging into these philosphies. They all have carbon copy results for the most part on some participants that fail to be able to apply them in life.
So, unless there is anymore need to discuss this matter. I found that this conection is valid to a degree. Yet, there are some variables that show how they splintered over how to apply this philosphy that makes up the foundation of all these groups.
I will go back to my addressing LGAT's, and how Klemmer & Associates are just ugly step children miss behaving with this warped, and messed up philosphy that fails to deliver what it promises to everyone.
I am sorry. The crappy excuse of how it works for many, while failing for some is not acceptable.
These LGAT's and especially Klemmer declares it works for everyone.
It doesn't, and its not the persons fault in not doing it right.
It is the philosphy that is at fault. Plain and simple
Anyways. It seems that there was a base philosphy floating around back then. Which each one of the ones listed chose to take off in different directions. Yet similar in overall philosphy in how it was talked about.
Kind of like you may say Orygun, and I say Oregon in how you pronounce this word.
I really don't see much difference in the overall aspects of the philosphy held by each of these groups.
The one aspect that can be definitely seen in researching, and digging into these philosphies. They all have carbon copy results for the most part on some participants that fail to be able to apply them in life.
So, unless there is anymore need to discuss this matter. I found that this conection is valid to a degree. Yet, there are some variables that show how they splintered over how to apply this philosphy that makes up the foundation of all these groups.
I will go back to my addressing LGAT's, and how Klemmer & Associates are just ugly step children miss behaving with this warped, and messed up philosphy that fails to deliver what it promises to everyone.
I am sorry. The crappy excuse of how it works for many, while failing for some is not acceptable.
These LGAT's and especially Klemmer declares it works for everyone.
It doesn't, and its not the persons fault in not doing it right.
It is the philosphy that is at fault. Plain and simple
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
upsidedownnewspaper
()
Date: July 16, 2007 01:37PM
I disagree. It is not the philosophy at fault, it is the business model.
We are all capable of thinking about life. Even the most staunch opponent of new age philosophy might have occasion to think momentarily that life is all good or everything is as it should be, or we all might be aliens...how about that!
We are all free to cast our minds in these directions. The mistake is to start believing that Scientology "owns" a particular view of life. Or that the trademarked terminology of an LGAT indicates a unique and exclusive way to enlightenment.
The philosophy isn't the problem.
We are all capable of thinking about life. Even the most staunch opponent of new age philosophy might have occasion to think momentarily that life is all good or everything is as it should be, or we all might be aliens...how about that!
We are all free to cast our minds in these directions. The mistake is to start believing that Scientology "owns" a particular view of life. Or that the trademarked terminology of an LGAT indicates a unique and exclusive way to enlightenment.
The philosophy isn't the problem.
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 16, 2007 01:57PM
Quote
upsidedownnewspaper
I disagree. It is not the philosophy at fault, it is the business model.
We are all capable of thinking about life. Even the most staunch opponent of new age philosophy might have occasion to think momentarily that life is all good or everything is as it should be, or we all might be aliens...how about that!
We are all free to cast our minds in these directions. The mistake is to start believing that Scientology "owns" a particular view of life. Or that the trademarked terminology of an LGAT indicates a unique and exclusive way to enlightenment.
The philosophy isn't the problem.
Thanks for expressing your opinion. I have shared mine, and yours is now heard too.
What has been your experience in LGAT's?
Because in my opinion there is no disagreement with the business model being bad. Its my opinion, and you have the right to disagree with me.
The philosphy in my opinion is more destructive than the business model on participants lives.
I lost a bunch of money on this crap. Yet I can gain that back.
I have lost alot in the realm of relationships. That will be substituted in time, but the relationships and destruction from that can't be replaced.
The business model did not do this. It was the philosphy that did this to my relationships.
So, I agree with you in part. I also believe that the business model aspect is a minor versus the major of the philophy here.
Scientology = Dianetics which produced founders of EST &
Posted by:
Rswinters
()
Date: July 16, 2007 02:18PM
Quote
upsidedownnewspaper
I disagree. It is not the philosophy at fault, it is the business model.
We are all capable of thinking about life. Even the most staunch opponent of new age philosophy might have occasion to think momentarily that life is all good or everything is as it should be, or we all might be aliens...how about that!
We are all free to cast our minds in these directions. The mistake is to start believing that Scientology "owns" a particular view of life. Or that the trademarked terminology of an LGAT indicates a unique and exclusive way to enlightenment.
The philosophy isn't the problem.
I asked you to share your experience in LGAT's. I was curious about what kind of posts you have made. In my looking at your posts made. You stated in one of your posts. Also, you shared your view/philosphy that you are choosing to live by also.
So you don't need to go into things as I asked you. I found the answers in this previous post of yours.
Quote
upsidedownnewspaper
Senior Member
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 145
Posted: 06-23-2007 09:00 AM Post subject: Greater acceptance?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it just me or is Scientology undergoing a new phase of its existence as a controversial religion??
As James Packer and his new wife marry under intense media scrutiny and in the presence of Scientologist friends Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, and while Oprah increasingly openly celebrates her deep friendships with John Travolta and Tom Cruise and Kirstie Alley, and in light of what I see as the new religion of Apostacy that has emerged since 9-11...am I right in thinking Scientology is being seen in a softer focus??
Perhaps it is just a personal shift. Where once I was rigidly defensive against controversial cults (particularly Scientology, Landmark, and Chabad -- the ones with which I had had personal dealings) I now find myself at ease in the presence of these entities. I no longer feel threatened by the idea of encroaching new age religions, without at all feeling like I have met them on some sort of common ground.
I think originally my fears stemmed from the fact that I was personally raised without any sort of religious upbringing. My parents abandoned church-going once my older brother commenced Sunday morning football! Often, I encountered people who had strong religious upbringings and their strong beliefs (and on one occasion at least, demands for me to identify myself: "What are you!? A Catholic?! An Anglican!? A Scientologist!?"...seriously) left me feeling wayward and out-of-control.
I've reached a plateau: not any more secure in my religious beliefs (I still don't identify with any one religion) but not frightful anymore of others' religious beliefs.
It is a nicer place for me.
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