I feel I should clarify what it is I am defending. I think that the Basic and Advanced has some potential benefits. This is not because of Summit. I think the curriculum has some potential benefits. If you're thinking of doing it, do it with someone else.

This distinction is necessary because of my later statements about LP and the trainers.

I think a good point has been made. If the trainers are not certified health professionals and so much liability is signed away, it might be a risky process for many people that suffer some form of mental illness.

First off, to "rrmoderator": I don't think that 'jsmiami' is someone that is "publicly defending Summit". Don't forget this person also said "It was a traumatic experience for me where I ended up alienating people I care about" and "thank g-d I got out and never looked back." I think this person is giving a fairly critical yet honest appraisal of Summit based on their personal experience. He/she is trying to answer your questions as truthfully as possible, and I'm surprised your harsh prodding hasn't scared them away.

There's a troubling trend on these board where if a person doesn't seem 100% gun-ho negative about every aspect of the topic, they are treated hostilely and accused of being apologists or plants. I think this practice just makes it harder for people like 'jsmiami' - who may have valuable input and insight - to share. The "you're either totally with us or against us" attitude found on these boards seems a little too much like tactics befitting LGAT/est/Landmark/LifeSpring/Scientology/Summit.

Anyway, to 'jsmiami': I do think that there is SOME kind of perceived benefit to these courses, if not people wouldn't initially continue attending, or become co-dependent on it later. My analogy towards this is "There's nothing inherently wrong with the CANDY that a child molester uses to lure children with, it's the way he utilizes it and his ultimate intent that is twisted." I think that these groups use sound self-help theories and methods that, used properly by a trained individual, could greatly help a person (generally, the entire cognitive behavior type of psychology). BUT they use them in improper and dangerous ways, that in the end help them control and manipulate people for their own goals (money, recruitment and allegiance).

Their initial wrong-doing comes from not being entirely forthcoming and clear with the people that are just signing up. It is all made to seem like very simple, harmless courses. In reality (and you can vouch for this) they are extremely intensive and taxing experiences, and it is completely INAPPROPRIATE for them not to make this 100% clear to people upfront. Of course, the argument is always made that there needs to be a degree of secrecy and hidden truth, if not people would decline to join in or not get the proper experience from it. Thats pretty much saying that it's okay to keep people in the dark because these organizations know what's best for them - like a parent with a child. Not only is that supremist and a complete disregard for free will, it is also plain WRONG when dealing with large amounts of money and somebody's mental and emotional health. If the organization were legit, there would be full disclosure right from the beginning.

Of course, there is also the matters of the manipulation, brainwashing, love bombing, fatigue and peer pressure that are loaded into all the exercises that are presented as techniques to help the participant. The key is to break old, destructive patterns and beliefs systems and replace them with new, positive once (which is generally a good thing), but at that point there is nothing stopping the people that you've handed over your entire trust and control from installing their own set of patterns and beliefs that will benefit them in the end. Along the way they create astounding (many times artificial) experiences and changes in people at a rate that is not healthy. These sensations and feeling are fleeting, and only lead to further co-dependance of the group. It's the equivalent of giving a severely depressed person heroin in an effort to cheer them up. So while the first two levels can be generally eye opening and inspiring to the attendees, those results also tend to act as a "gateway drug" to the third level (Leadership) . Where, oddly enough, the organization's nefarious undertones become more defined and the self-help angle becomes more blurred, yet the participants become even more blind to everything and eventually extremely loyal and defensive.

So, 'jsmiami', thats my stand on Summit and LGAT in general. My friend, who I spoke of before, eventually finished all three levels, and I became even more troubled when she talked about doing constant staffing and coaching training (which, of course, costs money). We grew apart some (we actually got into a huge, public fight at one point) but i noticed later, when i would see her, somewhat of a changed. She didn't seem as "ON" all the time anymore, or as preoccupied with helping at Summit or spending time with Summit people. It turns out that somebody she knew from Summit committed suicide, which snapped her out of her lucidity. It seems my friend, through her whole Summit veneer, was also on the verge of contemplating suicide, mainly because she wasn't living up to the "potential" she had discovered at Summit. She thanked me for never letting up, and told me that she now realizes how cultish and devious it all was. BUT she still holds that, in the long run, her experience at Summit helped her with her substance abuse, made her a more productive person and gave her a generally more positive outlook on life, all developments that I can't argue with.

Anyway, while you, like my friend, were able to extract some semblance of good out of a destructive operation, there are many others out there that delve too deep and become too entangled (like my friend's friend). It would be really helpful to know what exactly goes on inside Summit. Not just what each level is SUPPOSED to achieve, but what actually OCCURS during these courses (especially the third level, which seems to be the least documented level of ALL these kinds of groups). Knowing the exact exercises and practices and lectures and excursions, and what not, can help people on here figure out how people are being manipulated and traumatized and enveloped. It's important you talk about SUMMIT, because all the proof about Landmark and LifeSpring and est means nothing to people inside SUMMIT. If it seems like a lot of work and trouble, just think about all the time and effort I spent in hopes of trying to keep my friend safe, the people that you unfortunately alienated through your experiences, and the people that lost friends and family because they didn't know how to help them.

If you feel uncomfortable posting to this board, then write to me at: martnbraun@aol.com

Thanks

MartinBraun:

What you describe is not something to recommend to anyone under any circumstances in my opinion.

Summit is an LGAT (large group awareness training) like Landmark, est, Lifespring, NXIVM, Sterling, etc.

Nothing new, just another name for the same type of program/product.

Quite a few posers and apologists come here with the purpose of subverting threads and generally to disrupt the board.

This has occurred many times so it's understandable that many members are tired of it.

Some apologists start out by posing as someone with a varied view of an LGAT, "some of it was bad, some was good" etc.

Another cryptic reply is that the LGAT "is not for everyone."

It's an old ploy.

The key question is would he or she recommend the LGAT in question to anyone under any circumstances?

Since there are so many more viable, accountable, reputable and safer alternatives (e.g. continuing education, counseling from a licensed professional, community services, support groups, talking with family and old friends) this question can be very telling.

Quote
MartinBraun

Anyway, to 'jsmiami': I do think that there is SOME kind of perceived benefit to these courses, if not people wouldn't initially continue attending, or become co-dependent on it later. My analogy towards this is "There's nothing inherently wrong with the CANDY that a child molester uses to lure children with, it's the way he utilizes it and his ultimate intent that is twisted." I think that these groups use sound self-help theories and methods that, used properly by a trained individual, could greatly help a person (generally, the entire cognitive behavior type of psychology). BUT they use them in improper and dangerous ways, that in the end help them control and manipulate people for their own goals (money, recruitment and allegiance).

You've hit the nail on the head with this, Martin. Of course there are elements of all these programs that offer some benefit, perceived and/or real. But these are "bait," as you've suggested.

In addition to Cognitive psychology-type material, they generally co-opt and pervert other theoretical and practical types of content including Zen Buddhism, Existentialism, Nihilism, Deconstruction, "Psycho-Cybernetics," Relativism, ideas from other odd mystical, metaphysical, and esoteric schools, various "Positive-Thinking" doctrines, Dale Carnegie-type success/sales training, "encounter group" and "touchy-feely" therapeutics, revivalist and tent-show theatrics, old-time snake-oil sales tricks, 19th Century "self-improvement" methods, and on and on.

Is it any wonder people are lured into these things? They offer a banquet of ideas in the ideological wasteland this culture has become. Their relative success is predicated on a general lack of education or exposure to these things through the schools and colleges. I'd be surprised if there is any current curriculum that includes critical thinking -- I think that went out with the last Latin classes. The last thing those in power want to see are the people at the base of the pyramid actively thinking or pondering their position. They are likely to see that they are being used.


Ellen

I have a friend who is currently attending the Advance workshop after he attended the Basic a few weeks back. This all came about by him running into a friend. We both attending the guest workshop, and from the time I walk in I got the gut feeling something was not right from many different points. I am truely concerned about him, as I believe this is nothing but a mindwashing and money hungry cult. I don't know what to do? Any suggestions. I told him what I have found online. He just seems determined. Help!

My daughter recently attended a Summit Education workshop - the Discovery. I was not particularly pleased about it read her the information I found, limited as it is on this particular group. Needless to say she was talk into doing it by her good friend who told her it would change her life. My daughter is enlightened and all I could do is hope that she would be smart enough to take from it what she needed. I did go to the graduation and everyone pushed me to "do it". Coming from the EST generation and having friends that went through it I was already aware of the outcome of this and knew it was not for me. My daughter came out of the four days fairly unscathed and was ready to do the Break Out session, I think that is what it is called. She had to go to an exit interview the day after the end of the seminar and I asked why she had to go in person and was told because her friend told her to do it. I told her not to sign up for the next session unless she was sure and not to give them money. Well just like the words of wisdom about the don't do this seminar she went and signed up. Expecting her to be home for the coming seminar I get a call that her boyfriends mother sent her this website and for some reason this seem to have struck a cord and she immediately withdrew from the next session. Interestingly her withdrawal also came after a not so wonderful conversation with her "coach".

Long story short she laid out a whole lot of money which they are telling her she cannot have back. I say that is a bunch of bull and want to know what I can do to help her get that money back. There is no reason for them to keep the money if she is not attending and now she is getting calls to come back.

I don't want to say I told you so and I won't ...... I want to thrash these people within an inch of their lives, her friends included but I do understand their need to belong to something like this. My daughter on the other hand is not a follower (or at least I thought so) and I knew that this would be short lived. What recourse is there to get her money back? Do I call the State Attorney General? Anyone make a suggestion?

Just a little more information for those who are checking out Summit for the first time - Ken Cushman who started this group also has another group called the International Coaching Consultant Group. Same philosophy. Also The Answer is another group he is affiliated with. I read the Secret and all that stuff and believe you get what you ask for..... but not being brainwashed into a belief. This is dangerous stuff and needs to be shown as such. There is little information on this group and this individual but I am determined to make sure that no one else falls prey to another LGAT like this one.

[www.icctg.com]

[www.gettheanswer.org]

I just walked out of a meeting this past Friday evening. It was called "Gratitude Training" and it was led by Ray Blanchard. Honestly, my alarm bells started going off the moment I walked into the room. Several control/power plays were established right off the bat. I walked out after 3 1/2 hours of a lecturing and 3 trainers followed me out. I told them that I didn't like being manipulated that this was not a spiritual retreat, etc... They talked in circles until I announced I had to use the restroom. I then creeped out of the restroom only to be spotted and followed again. I called a friend quickly on my cell and ignored them. After about 5 minutes they left and my ride showed up. It was very creepy so, I started researching them and discovered that the reason I couldn't find much about them in the first place was that they are constantly changing their name.

Luckily I didn't pay for the first session! They apparently give scholarships to reach out to more people. If you end up paying they will give you your money back but only if you attend level one and two completely. So, they have time to hook you.

Thanks for posting things like this up. I will warn as many of my friends as possible about "Gratitude Training".