Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: Maxui ()
Date: August 18, 2007 12:00AM

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However in the very short time I have been here I have been met with nothing but abuse from most members of this forum

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elena

You might want to check your definition of abuse.
a¬∑buse /v. əˈbyuz; n. əˈbyus/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb,

to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about;

Your comment is abusive in and of itself.

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No. You are more like one of the early participants in a pyramid/MLM who got or is getting his reward and wants to defend the whole structure to keep his "down-lines" contributing.

I couldnt give a monkeys if you joined my "cult" or not and again I AM NOT HERE TO RECRUIT- This would be the LAST place I would come to recruit anyone if indeed I was in the recruitment business.

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We've already heard it. Whether it's Quest, Insight, Landmark, PSI, Impact, or any of the other copy-cat LGATs, they are all predictable and boring as would be your "healthy debate."

I find you boring and predictable - no matter what I say I am the enemy - that much is clear.

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Here's the low-down: All these groups offer some kind of "bait." They all pretend not to be in the psychology business but they all practice rudimentary and amateur kinds of basic psychology or psychotherapy that has been twisted into odd configurations to suite their own purposes -- think scientology.
In order to survive they have to provide ~something.~ You've mistaken this ~something~ for the whole.

I have not mistaken this for the whole. for me this was the beginning of something not the be all and end all.

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You are in the same position as any adolescent who got his first sexual encounter from a prostitute. Sure, go right ahead and crow about your "experience" but many of us know it for what it was. Don't be so arrogant as to think we haven't seen others like you who've postured predictably as you have. These cookie-cutter groups put out a cookie-cutter "grad."

You are just as predictable in the automatic slating of things you don't agree with.

If its not with us its against us.
that is supreme arrogance.

see previous re abusive.



Sweet jesus.


Self indulgent sicophants feeding off each others misery.

You are right and if anyone says otherwise they are in collusion with the Evil Cult.

You all deserve each other

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:28AM

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"elena"
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"Maxui"




I was interested to find out why when my experience was very positive others found it extremely damaging.


There is no shortage of people who will defend pyramid schemes, multi-level-marketing, or network-marketing. Generally, these people have very, very flattering things to say about these sales structures. You are just another one.



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the other reason was to offer my views on the subject and engage in healthy debate.


We've already heard it all.



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However in the very short time I have been here I have been met with nothing but abuse from most members of this forum


You might want to check your definition of abuse.


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- aside from SaneAgain who was the only person to engage in reasoned argument without resorting to name calling and insinuation that I was in the employ of one or other LGAT group and I honour her for that.

Your comments have shed a little light on why that is.

I would not use the Nazi analogy myself being of German and Jewish stock
however I do take your point.

I have been like a healthy person in a cancer ward going "Hey I am healthy! Chemo worked for me! -screw you guys"


No. You are more like one of the early participants in a pyramid/MLM who got or is getting his reward and wants to defend the whole structure to keep his "down-lines" contributing.

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Thank you for that insight.

To those who I have rubbed proverbial salt into I apologise and see now that my posts altho well intended may have caused more pain then good
and as such I will no longer be posting here.

If anyone wishes to continue to discuss the pro's and cons of LGATS with me PM me and I will provide alternate contact details.

Thank you again Billy-g for your insight

Matt


Again,

We've already heard it. Whether it's Quest, Insight, Landmark, PSI, Impact, or any of the other copy-cat LGATs, they are all predictable and boring as would be your "healthy debate."

Here's the low-down: All these groups offer some kind of "bait." They all pretend not to be in the psychology business but they all practice rudimentary and amateur kinds of basic psychology or psychotherapy that has been twisted into odd configurations to suite their own purposes -- think scientology. In order to survive they have to provide ~something.~ You've mistaken this ~something~ for the whole. You are in the same position as any adolescent who got his first sexual encounter from a prostitute. Sure, go right ahead and crow about your "experience" but many of us know it for what it was. Don't be so arrogant as to think we haven't seen others like you who've postured predictably as you have. These cookie-cutter groups put out a cookie-cutter "grad."



Ellen


trying to do this right; would like to comment on "here's the lowdown..."
just to say, RIGHT ON ellen,,,just what I was trying to say but was having difficulty articulating.

The Shad

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:30AM

*sigh*

Elena's comments obviously refer to certain types of teenage boys bragging about their conquests, including things like how much the *chick* loved it, blah blah, without mentioning that they paid for it, and the *chick* was probably bored out of her skull.

Maxui, I think you're jumping to conclusions. elena's not slating prostitutes, she's slating boys that lie about using them.

This was elena's first post, that you also took offense at:

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How much have you read about Insight, MSIA, and John-Roger? How much do you know about cults? Do you know what a "bliss-ninny" is? Are you saying that a cult "works for you?"

Do some research before you go any farther. Insight is one of the more creepy and abusive cults. Peter McWilliams wrote a very good book about it called "Life 102; What To Do When Your Guru Sues You."

They're all questions. They're not abuse. They even provide references for you. I can see how you might take offense about the bliss-ninny bit, but knowing what a bliss-ninny is is useful, because if you understand that you understand a lot about the effect of lgat processes on body chemistry, how that works in the conversion process, and the fact that its a form of addiction, where things associated with the original processes re-trigger the release of endorphins...etc etc - as elena said, how much research have you done, before jumping in to defend your lgat?

I have given you a lot of basis for a rational conversation, by asking a lot of reasonable questions - but instead of dealing with the issues you've [i:d8f73a9a2f]embroiled yourself [/i:d8f73a9a2f]in name calling. That's something you [i:d8f73a9a2f]can[/i:d8f73a9a2f] take responsibility for.

Questions I've asked are things like:

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Maxui wrote:

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However my response would not be "*shrug* It worked for me."

That is a massively selfish response and not in line at all with what I got out of the workshops I attended.

For me we are all one (and for rsWinters this is scientifically provable)
and any deliberate loss of life is unacceptable.


Presumably then you would not recommend that anyone attend an LGAT, and if anyone asked your advice you would recommend that they not do it?

Since reading this board and concluding that some sort of pre-screening should be implemented, have you gone back to your workshop leader and asked him to do so?

What kind of pre-screening would you recommend? Are the workshop leaders qualified to assess psychological and psychiatric issues? Would they be willing to use mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists, which their belief system does not approve of?

and

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Brainwashing a person without their consent is a violation of the fundamental human right to freedom of our own thoughts, beliefs and identity.

Let me know if you disagree with that.

You may not be consciously recruiting for your organisation, but you are a walking advert for it. Every time you tell someone your fantastic experience its 'air-time for the lgat'. The main point of lgat training is to brainwash people to think they've had a fantastic time, and then *share* that with others. Since you agree you've been brainwashed - ? Even if you do have positive benefits from it - yes, every con has to have something going for it, at least for a few people.

The bottom line is its con-game, and when people find out they've been conned the normal response is surprise, shock, outrage, embarrassment, sense of betrayal and so forth. Even for those who've had a good experience. That's why its so difficult to take you at face-value when you say you're not part of the organisation - if you see that its a con, and you're still in it - ?? I don't know, maybe for some people it just takes take longer to sink in.

The fact that you claim you're open and trusting here, while not divulging which organisation you're from, doesn't help that. You have told me by personal mail which lgat you are from; maybe that is why I am less aggressive than the others are.

Sadly its true that your initial post and general arguments are "cookie-cut".

Here is another to compare it to:

[board.culteducation.com]

Otter wrote:

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I graduated from Impact Trainings two years ago. Everyone who attends the trainings had a different result, as I am sure my results are different than anyone else's. I cannot take away form anyone's expereince there and I know some people didn't like it. I did.

I had been seeing a therapist for several years and I gained more insight in myself in those few days at Impact than I did in many hours with her. She saw it too and complimented me on what I had learned and applied in my life.

This training isn't for everyone. It is for anyone who really doesn't like how their life is going and is willing to take a look at themselves and make a difference in how they are living life. The results of my training have allowed me to have a healthy relationship with my gfriend / fiance that wouldn't have been possible before. I treat others better. I learn from my mistakes instead of being hard on myself for making them. I could go on and on about how the training 'Impacted' me.

For those who had a bad experience and have turned to bashing it, also know that there are many many people who have taken the training and made a difference in their own lives.

.... Nobody pressured me to staff, nobody pressured me to get friends and family there.

...one of the largest problems with LGAT's, and you just mentioned it. They don't screen the applicants to choose the ones who are likely to remain emotionally healthy. They will enroll anyone and hope for the best, but possibly use a bit og spin control out when someone has a bad reaction and goes wacky.

Empowering someone who then feels it for the first time can certainly be dangerous. They have no experience in how ot use that empowerment and usually end up misusing it to some degee. I told off my mom after Summit and she didn't deserve it (it did feel good though to stand up to her after so many years of henpecking). The more unstabel a trainee, the more potential they have to go off and do something stuid with their "new found power."

Sorry if that was to tedious to read. There are more, roughly the same for each different lgat, all the same script:

- My experience was great, never mind yours.
- It doesn't work for everyone.
- I was never pressured.
- If anyone had a bad experience its their own fault (blaming the victim)

Can you understand how ... difficult it is to tell one lgat promoter from another, why we get suspicious, why some get bored with dealing with the same questions, and rather say - go do your research, you're a carbon copy?

In this case, you and otter even have the same history - did the training two years ago, shrink didn't cut it for you. And so on.

By the way, are you aware of the links between lgats and scientology? THe common concepts, processes, terminology? What do you think of that?

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:30AM

ops, my attempt to reply to ellen's quote did not work...will keep trying

followed SA's instructions, but I must have missed something.

later,
"Shad"

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:38AM

Thank you SaneAgain,

You have posted some of the same questions/comments I had.

And specifically I STILL don't know which LGAT programme Mauxi participated in, and I am just curious about his shyness about giving us the name...IF it was/is so wonderful for him, why does he not want to devulge the name of the programme?

Just Curious,
"Shad"

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:38AM

:lol: Shadow, fire that quotes teacher!!

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:48AM

:lol: *chuckle* [the "lazy" student will perservere] - it is a poor tennis player who blames his racket, i like to say, :lol: "racket", no, i mean that thing with cut gut and wood, but nowdays, it's titanium and nylon, eh?

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:52AM

Hey there ellen,

I have been trying to find the forum in which you asked me, with reference to my friend" Why do you think she is not listening"....i was too tired last night to try to figure out the quote thingey, and now I can't find your comment.

Anyway, this is what I think:
She is not listening because she has been brainwashed. She is not listening because while her ears hear what I am saying her brian is not assimilating what I am saying.

And I believe this is happening because the neurotransmitters have been interfered with. Her normal/natural way of hearing has been altered. I know this because when I worked with autistic children, after just three ours of cognitive behaviour therapy I could get the child to do what I wanted them to do.

later,
"Shad"

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: August 18, 2007 01:55AM

Billy-g, thank you for your comments. What really rubs salt in the wound for me, is being told that my bad experience is my own fault because I wasn't "ready to face my fears" and I "interpreted" things incorrectly.

That's like a (relatively) healthy smoker telling a ward full of lung cancer patients that they're sick because they inhale wrong.

Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: elena ()
Date: August 18, 2007 02:22AM

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The Shadow


Anyway, this is what I think:
She is not listening because she has been brainwashed. She is not listening because while her ears hear what I am saying her brian is not assimilating what I am saying.

And I believe this is happening because the neurotransmitters have been interfered with. Her normal/natural way of hearing has been altered. I know this because when I worked with autistic children, after just three ours of cognitive behaviour therapy I could get the child to do what I wanted them to do.

later,
"Shad"


That's it. Like a "hijacking of the amygdala." "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques," by Ofshe and Singer is the best thing I've come across to explain why people have a visceral reaction to any criticism of their group that blocks their hearing, their comprehension, and their perception -- they take an attack on the cult personally. Here's how the scammers get them to do this:


[www.antisectes.net]



Ellen

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