Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 08, 2010 01:25AM
Thanks, ExLand. Will reply by private message.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 08, 2010 05:40AM
After reading extensively around this forum, I realized that the similarities in the approach of just about all the LGATS mentioned herein is striking. The relatively low feature of the insight training centre in JHB also caught my eye. Mangwanya's response very accurately describes what goes on there. Well done for getting out so quick, Mangwanya . I am writing down a few of the things that strikes a strong resemblance to the other LGAT's.
The approach- very much based on having life altering experiences, necessitating inviting (recruiting) new workshop participants. So people keep going to the promise of improving their lives and achieving their "life purposes." Extremely long hours- during our workshop we seldom left before 2 in the morning. No toilet breaks, no fidgeting, lots of emotional punishment for transgressing even at the smallest level, etc.
The games, many were mentioned- Tarzan and Jane- lots of humiliating experiences, the lifeboat, the black and white game, expressing anger by punching a pillow and letting rip at all your past hurts, vibrating at a frequency, getting down to "nothingness", lots of John Denver and Whitney Houston songs, the list goes on on on.
The rules- never to be broken, many threats of a person bringing evidence of their shoddy lives if they break the rules (no toilet breaks, no sleeping or getting tired, even as an assistant). I assisted a few times (for which I took personal leave from work), and during some of these, even as an assistant was I told how useless I am for making a small mistake (I opened a door too soon!). No allowance to talk about what happens there is in any way tolerated, as people would have to experience it for themselves to see the full benefit. We were clearly told that it is not a religious experiences, but a deeply spiritual one (which it certainly is).
Unlike Mangwanya, I experienced things extremely intense, both during and years after attending. For example, I once experienced descending deep into the ground, seeing the roots of trees as I went underground. I entered a room lined with bricks and from one corner, I saw a blue light starting to grow. It was absolutely magnificent to watch, but a stern warning came not to look into it. I could not resist, and felt the growing light enter every cell of my body, bringing feelings of bliss beyond understanding. I was later told that I had met my "spirit guide". Yeah right.
I also experienced white light tunnels a few times, with strong invitations to enter. The blissful feelings from these became more and more intense. The strong sense that I had was that something inside of me wanted to leave my body. I wanted to let go, but every time something sent me back. I once also saw a white misty figure in my garden (I woke at three in the morning to stroll outside). This sight gave me a terrible fright, and causes intense emotion even now when I write about it. Sh%*t, it overwhelms me even today.
If someone can help me make sense of these experiences, I'd really like to know (or was this just me?)
I remember during the Joyspring workshop, going towards the stage to get my life contract validated- I wrote things on a piece of paper that for sure was not my hand writing- I write very illegibly, but this was pure and beautiful.
To cut a long story short, I also lost many friends, my family thought I went over the cliff and needed a straightjacket (I fervently tried to pursuade them to also attend), my kids thought I have lost it completely (which I did, I just did not know it then), and we headed for a divorce as my wife could not stand my self-centredness any more. And I just could not care a sh*$t, because I was "on purpose". What crap.
I am so grateful to all of you who contribute here, you have opened my eyes to some truths that lay beyond my understanding for years (despite cutting the ties years ago).
The approach- very much based on having life altering experiences, necessitating inviting (recruiting) new workshop participants. So people keep going to the promise of improving their lives and achieving their "life purposes." Extremely long hours- during our workshop we seldom left before 2 in the morning. No toilet breaks, no fidgeting, lots of emotional punishment for transgressing even at the smallest level, etc.
The games, many were mentioned- Tarzan and Jane- lots of humiliating experiences, the lifeboat, the black and white game, expressing anger by punching a pillow and letting rip at all your past hurts, vibrating at a frequency, getting down to "nothingness", lots of John Denver and Whitney Houston songs, the list goes on on on.
The rules- never to be broken, many threats of a person bringing evidence of their shoddy lives if they break the rules (no toilet breaks, no sleeping or getting tired, even as an assistant). I assisted a few times (for which I took personal leave from work), and during some of these, even as an assistant was I told how useless I am for making a small mistake (I opened a door too soon!). No allowance to talk about what happens there is in any way tolerated, as people would have to experience it for themselves to see the full benefit. We were clearly told that it is not a religious experiences, but a deeply spiritual one (which it certainly is).
Unlike Mangwanya, I experienced things extremely intense, both during and years after attending. For example, I once experienced descending deep into the ground, seeing the roots of trees as I went underground. I entered a room lined with bricks and from one corner, I saw a blue light starting to grow. It was absolutely magnificent to watch, but a stern warning came not to look into it. I could not resist, and felt the growing light enter every cell of my body, bringing feelings of bliss beyond understanding. I was later told that I had met my "spirit guide". Yeah right.
I also experienced white light tunnels a few times, with strong invitations to enter. The blissful feelings from these became more and more intense. The strong sense that I had was that something inside of me wanted to leave my body. I wanted to let go, but every time something sent me back. I once also saw a white misty figure in my garden (I woke at three in the morning to stroll outside). This sight gave me a terrible fright, and causes intense emotion even now when I write about it. Sh%*t, it overwhelms me even today.
If someone can help me make sense of these experiences, I'd really like to know (or was this just me?)
I remember during the Joyspring workshop, going towards the stage to get my life contract validated- I wrote things on a piece of paper that for sure was not my hand writing- I write very illegibly, but this was pure and beautiful.
To cut a long story short, I also lost many friends, my family thought I went over the cliff and needed a straightjacket (I fervently tried to pursuade them to also attend), my kids thought I have lost it completely (which I did, I just did not know it then), and we headed for a divorce as my wife could not stand my self-centredness any more. And I just could not care a sh*$t, because I was "on purpose". What crap.
I am so grateful to all of you who contribute here, you have opened my eyes to some truths that lay beyond my understanding for years (despite cutting the ties years ago).
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 09, 2010 10:25PM
SaneAgain, did you manage to write to the Medical and Health Professionals' Council. If so, what was the outcome? I have had trouble for seven years after doing the Insight training centre full monty- turning point, Joyspring and the Mile. I have only learnt from this forum of its hideous nature and the after-effects. All of the stuff written about here are practiced by them- the games are the same, the doors are locked, rules are punitively enforced, no timepieces allowed, recruiting more "victims", the systems of inviting family, assisting in future events- all of it. Not many people have written about them here, however.
Regards, hope to hear from you when you "pop in" again.
Regards, hope to hear from you when you "pop in" again.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 23, 2010 04:18AM
Hey, ExLand
Apologies if this comes through twice- lost my connection there for a while.
I want to mention the many adverts on the M1 highway in central Jhb that advertises "Dyanetics" as the newest, latest opportunity to rid yourself of stress, worries, and becoming the master of your own destiny. My small research effort indicates a clear link to Hubbard's ideas on scientology. Just thinking about the hungry masses pouring their money into the promises of finding answers to human misery makes me sick. Have you heard of this approach?
Apologies if this comes through twice- lost my connection there for a while.
I want to mention the many adverts on the M1 highway in central Jhb that advertises "Dyanetics" as the newest, latest opportunity to rid yourself of stress, worries, and becoming the master of your own destiny. My small research effort indicates a clear link to Hubbard's ideas on scientology. Just thinking about the hungry masses pouring their money into the promises of finding answers to human misery makes me sick. Have you heard of this approach?
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 23, 2010 04:53AM
Hey ExLand
During our turning point workshop (insight training), my wife indicated grave reservations about what's going on, much like Mangwanya did. However, she kept going at it in the face of accusations (screaming) that she will never finish the course and so be deemed a failure. She persevered to show me her love and to indicate that she could finish this. Had I known at the time, I would have taken her home (I offered, but for our marriage's sake, she persevered and insisted to finish). The odd thing is, after 7 years of renouncing the training, at certain times of the year, she feels the symptoms coming on very strongly(more or less at the same time) and the depression getting the better of her. She also tells me (I did all the courses- turning point, Joyspring and the Mile), that at those similar times in the year, she sees the change occuring within me. Sometimes I feel a pull towards going back, almost as if I need to finish unfinished business- as much as I hate the place today. I will never return, but cannot figure out why the pull does not want to go away.
Since 2003, my life turned around, but not without much trouble. I swung completely over to the other side and became a religious nut, doing an equal amount of harm in my family. I guess that I was merely making manifest the same thing but by using other means. Today things are better and I am at least able to think more clearly and critically about these things, but we still have a long way to go. This forum has also helped me see some "religious" issues in the right light and for what it is. It made me realize just how much deceipt is going in our churches and how much resemblance between brainwashing, destruction persuation and cults are to be found in what we sometimes observe in church as "spiritual" experiences. Boy oh boy, we have to be sooo careful. Prayer certainly helps in obtaining the necessary discernment.
I have read quite a bit about brainwashing techniques and how cults work- very fascinating. The book "Anatomy of an illusion" by Keiser &Keiser is a good reference on the subject of belief and attitude change, as is Collin's "The cult experience". Thanks for pointing me in a direction- I will keep studying these phenomena to help others.
During our turning point workshop (insight training), my wife indicated grave reservations about what's going on, much like Mangwanya did. However, she kept going at it in the face of accusations (screaming) that she will never finish the course and so be deemed a failure. She persevered to show me her love and to indicate that she could finish this. Had I known at the time, I would have taken her home (I offered, but for our marriage's sake, she persevered and insisted to finish). The odd thing is, after 7 years of renouncing the training, at certain times of the year, she feels the symptoms coming on very strongly(more or less at the same time) and the depression getting the better of her. She also tells me (I did all the courses- turning point, Joyspring and the Mile), that at those similar times in the year, she sees the change occuring within me. Sometimes I feel a pull towards going back, almost as if I need to finish unfinished business- as much as I hate the place today. I will never return, but cannot figure out why the pull does not want to go away.
Since 2003, my life turned around, but not without much trouble. I swung completely over to the other side and became a religious nut, doing an equal amount of harm in my family. I guess that I was merely making manifest the same thing but by using other means. Today things are better and I am at least able to think more clearly and critically about these things, but we still have a long way to go. This forum has also helped me see some "religious" issues in the right light and for what it is. It made me realize just how much deceipt is going in our churches and how much resemblance between brainwashing, destruction persuation and cults are to be found in what we sometimes observe in church as "spiritual" experiences. Boy oh boy, we have to be sooo careful. Prayer certainly helps in obtaining the necessary discernment.
I have read quite a bit about brainwashing techniques and how cults work- very fascinating. The book "Anatomy of an illusion" by Keiser &Keiser is a good reference on the subject of belief and attitude change, as is Collin's "The cult experience". Thanks for pointing me in a direction- I will keep studying these phenomena to help others.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 23, 2010 05:05AM
ExLand
Are there anybody that you know have attended the Center of Light (Insight Training) seminars? I would really like to get in touch with those who managed to extract themselves from it. I tell you, there is no way out without huge amounts of Godly grace.
I have tried to obtain some help through professionals, but I cannot get hold of anyone who knows enough about it. I guess this was the golden thread throughout the other threads. Upon contacting a councillor in Cape Town, I have been greeted with the standard response as someone who already had deep insecurities and hence tried my way out through this training. Well, I went because me employer sent me under the auspices of "how to improve relationships in life" (no need to mention that he had been assistingin the LGAT for years and was a stern convert). So I was not seeking it per se, and hence I did not appreciate the immediate judgement of the councillor who clearly has no idea of what goes on in LGATS. So I am still searching for someone who KNOWS and can help.
Thanks for your inputs so far.
Are there anybody that you know have attended the Center of Light (Insight Training) seminars? I would really like to get in touch with those who managed to extract themselves from it. I tell you, there is no way out without huge amounts of Godly grace.
I have tried to obtain some help through professionals, but I cannot get hold of anyone who knows enough about it. I guess this was the golden thread throughout the other threads. Upon contacting a councillor in Cape Town, I have been greeted with the standard response as someone who already had deep insecurities and hence tried my way out through this training. Well, I went because me employer sent me under the auspices of "how to improve relationships in life" (no need to mention that he had been assistingin the LGAT for years and was a stern convert). So I was not seeking it per se, and hence I did not appreciate the immediate judgement of the councillor who clearly has no idea of what goes on in LGATS. So I am still searching for someone who KNOWS and can help.
Thanks for your inputs so far.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 25, 2010 02:24PM
Quote
SaneAgain
Connecting a few dots in the South Africa LGAT industry...
[www.apollowebworks.com]Quote
Subject: Finished your Scamway story...
Wed, 26 Aug 1998
Well-yes. Interesting; There was a cult called Breakthrough that sprung upon
my home town a few years ago that operated along similar lines, separation
of philosophies, almost divine worship of a leader, hugging, sleep
deprivation in the name of "training", and the compulsion to recruit others.
There were in fact three "courses" , named Breakthrough, Joyspring and The
Mile,each of which cost more than the one before. The sad part is that I was
absolutely not interested and many of my friends - and girlfriend - were,
this resulted in an "us and them" situation where suddenly I was an enemy!!.
This cult was run by an allegedly failed Israeli surgeon by the name of
Baruch Banai.
[www.thechristadelphians.org]
The "Breakthrough" cult is in fact now called the "Insight Training Centre", sometimes also referred to as the "Centre of Light" in Johannesburg (Fourways) and is indeed run by Baruch Banai (ex-Israeli surgeon). Their webpage indicates his vision as wanting to change the world, creating a planet conducive for people to be born into. I have attended all three the training sessions, now called "Turning Point", "Joyspring" and "The Mile," and can give a good account of what goes on during those events. The structure and approach very closely resembles Est, amongst others.Quote
SkepticJun 14 2004, 08:55 AM
Read more about why "cellular memory" is complete nonsense here.
I actually attended a "free seminar" by a guy called Baruch Banai, who is into "primal therapy", which amongst other things claims the trauma of childbirth leaves everyone damaged psychologically(!) and only through "re-experiencing" the birth process will you achieve release (an excperience he offers to facilitate at a hefty fee...) He always mentions in his free introduction that a woman attending one of his course realised for the first time that she had been sexually abused. This seems very impressive to the lay person, but is just part of his very succesful sales tehnique to sell his "training course" (so-called to sidestep legal issues related to doing therapy unlicensed) of building his credibility by siting the fact that he used to be a medical doctor and showing off his impressive knowledge of all the classical psychological theories (even though he isn't a registered therapist) and then he subtly introduces his pseudoscience through very impressive sleight of hand.
Banai only holds an honnours degree in psychology- SA standards require at least a Masters degree, coupled with an internship to qualify as a registered therapist.
The Insight Training centre indeed offers sessions on spiritual progression spiritual regression into what they believe (or make participants believe), are past lives (read reincarnation). We have been subjected to the idea of re-experiencing your birth due to the trauma experienced as a new-born baby, also with the idea that children choose their parents and that they do so to learn the lessons that they have not learnt in "past lives".
"Cellular memory" and "Repressed Memory Syndrome" (which is actually "False Memory Syndrome") is pseudoscience at best and manipulation at worst.
PS: there used to be a web site for ex-victims of Baruch Banai's "therapy", but he has managed to have it closed down...
And this...
[primal-page.com]
Which is about self-primaling and has "Here is the list of readers who would like to correspond with others interested in self-primal therapy:" which includes Wendy Sefor.
So... Pat Grove trained Baruch and Wendy, both of whom now run different LGATs and both of whom have an interest in primal therapy.
I guess some of the techniques used in the training are based on primal therapy or its tenets and that's useful to know because I can read about it and try to understand what they do on the training - because understanding makes me sane. (No, understanding is NOT 'the booby prize', understanding is reality and sanity)
Does anyone know anything about the influence or use of primalling in LGAT?
It seems primal therapy is about doing exercises designed to cause patient to EXPERIENCE old pain and trauma in order to CLEAR and RELEASE it.
Ring any bells?
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Ryk
()
Date: February 25, 2010 03:01PM
Quote
SaneAgain
Hello Brad,
Just some extra comments for anyone reading:
I hope I haven't given the impression I went to Quest for help with psychotic episodes. I went to Quest in good mental health because I was lead to believe it would be fun and would give me tools to improve my life.
Likewise- I was sent to the Insight Training by a former manager under the auspices of "improving relationships" and concretizing my "life purpose"
I have read about other lgats that advise people not to attend the advanced trainings if they have a history of psychological or psychiatric problems. I can't remember anything like that on Quest but maybe it was in fine print and I didn't notice. Either way, that is NOT good advice because based on my own experience, and several articles I have read (including academic medical research on est) the majority of people who have bad psychological reactions do NOT have any history of psychiatric problems. So if anyone is reading this and thinking 'oh, it couldn't happen to me' - think again. And if you have problems already, even more reason to stay away. I've read that the training triggers extreme manic phases in bipolar people, so if you're bipolar lgats are a really bad idea. (They trigger manic phases in average people, so just imagine). The training, especially Inquest, is based on chemical, biological changes brought about by the processes. Its not just a bunch of stupid ideas that causes problems, its the holistic effect of the stupid ideas mixed with disturbed brain chemistry, physical effects like severe sweating and exhaustion, and emotional manipulation. Some people interpret the effects of these processes as spiritual experiences, but they're not. I'm obviously not an expert on spiritual experiences but there is enough orchestration that the experiences can be rationally and scientifically explained.
Likewise at Insight Training. The culmination point during the Joyspring training is where a deep meditative state is achieved, until it seems as if something "takes over the body," and a revelation of your life purpose comes from "somewhere". During these events (I have also assisted in the processes many times), I have witnessed human bodies going into spams, refusing to cooperate with the person inside, some even crawled to the "contract board", where sometimes the most illegible handwriting confirms the contract. People in that state (myself included) confirmed states of utter bliss. This happens to 90% of people who finally get to that stage of the training. As an assistant, one is not immune from these experiences and I myself have experienced feelings that my body is going out of control (heavy shaking, sometimes entering a blinding white light which seems to others as if the person is unconscious). As I write this, my hair goes straight up in the air again, after freakin 7 years!
My main purpose in writing on this board is to provide a warning for others, so that they don't go through the same hell I have. Psychosis is a clinical word for something that I can only compare to a bad acid trip that does not wear off after a few hours. (I haven't ever taken acid, but I read all the huxley books long ago). It can last for days or weeks, and leaves a nightmarish residue that can take months or even years to subside, even with medication. And then you are, of course, left with the stigma of mental illness and picking up the pieces of disrupted or destroyed career, relationships etc - not to mention the medical bills and the risk of spending the rest of your life wondering what's wrong with you, and fearing a relapse. Even worse, trying to make sense of this nightmare world using the pseudo-concepts from Quest that caused the problem in the first place - trust me, not fun.
Like I said, it's been 7 years for me. And I have been diagnosed with PTSD and depression last year only, after years of searching for the origins of my current mental state.
There is an article on this site called 'The Mary Polanski L series' and that describes precisely what I went through, only my experience was worse because I didn't have the psychological training and framework to understand what was happening to me, as the author of the article did.
If anyone reading this has had a similar experience I have to emphasise what Brad said and what Rick Ross also said - get professional help. The training messes up your brain chemistry, apart from anything else, and it is good idea to at least get short term treatment for that, while you try to sort out the rest of the mess. It is also a good idea to tell your doctor or psychiatrist that you have attended an lgat, and give them a good idea of what that involves. This may not be as difficult as it sounds; my psychiatrist knew exactly what I was talking about because he'd seen severalother patients in the same state, who'd also just come off trainings (don't know which).
Just be sure to first check that the doctors aren't knee-deep in an lgat themselves.
One last point, if there are any "questies" out there (do you like being called a "questie?" - that's what they call you, in case you haven't heard the term yet) thinking of doing Inquest, consider this: AFTER you've done inquest you get handed a little form that informs you that "it may take up to two years for the Inquest experience to settle". They don't tell you this BEFORE you do it. The ~commitment~ is not for five days, its for two years. At least. Even if you don't have a severe reaction like a psychosis, you life will be disrupted for about two years. Some of the other people I know who've done inquest sank into long periods of depression, changed jobs, changed relationships - and generally disrupted their lives. Some say they're really happy and that's fine for them, but many are not.
We have been warned that if you EVER turn your back on your "life contract", life will turn itself on you.
Since so few wrote about the Insight Training centre, I hope this helps others find their way back to themselves.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Doneit
()
Date: May 28, 2010 02:09PM
Don't feel bad about going. I was forced to by my company The Unlimited World.
The courses are sick....and how a company can make it mandatory in your employement contract still baffles me.
I was sent to Steven Gullan of Life Dynamics Training. If the training wasn't bad enough the 5 hour sales pitch for the next course was.
There were people that had some serious problems come up during the course and they clearly needed professional help not some guy who got a "diploma" off the internet.
Within The Unlimited World company that sell insurance, his courses were the direct cause of 5 marriage break-ups. His little speech about his own failed marriage and how after his wife cheated on him she was not in his future nor he in hers, but now they are best mates. His WIN-WIN at all costs is total rubbish.
The courses have seriously effected peoples lives, and even in the company I work for the more people that go on the courses the more the company becomes crazy. Imagine a whole company that went through these courses...... What a fiasco.
In fact most of the die hard fans of the course are generally the most messed up in the company. They chain smoke, drink excessivley but hide it by saying it is social, have affairs and generally live a fake life.
PLEASE spread the word on these courses so that we can try to educate as many people as possible.
The courses are sick....and how a company can make it mandatory in your employement contract still baffles me.
I was sent to Steven Gullan of Life Dynamics Training. If the training wasn't bad enough the 5 hour sales pitch for the next course was.
There were people that had some serious problems come up during the course and they clearly needed professional help not some guy who got a "diploma" off the internet.
Within The Unlimited World company that sell insurance, his courses were the direct cause of 5 marriage break-ups. His little speech about his own failed marriage and how after his wife cheated on him she was not in his future nor he in hers, but now they are best mates. His WIN-WIN at all costs is total rubbish.
The courses have seriously effected peoples lives, and even in the company I work for the more people that go on the courses the more the company becomes crazy. Imagine a whole company that went through these courses...... What a fiasco.
In fact most of the die hard fans of the course are generally the most messed up in the company. They chain smoke, drink excessivley but hide it by saying it is social, have affairs and generally live a fake life.
PLEASE spread the word on these courses so that we can try to educate as many people as possible.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Sane Again
()
Date: August 03, 2010 11:28PM
Quote
Ryk
SaneAgain, did you manage to write to the Medical and Health Professionals' Council. If so, what was the outcome?
Regards, hope to hear from you when you "pop in" again.
Hi Ryk - the short is no, I didn't. I think David R did, and they were interested and would like to hear more cases - have you contacted him?
I have little faith that formal complaints of any kind will put a dent in Quest, but I am fairly certain they will put more dents in me (mentally, if not legally).
Legally.... I have stumbled across some serious potential problems for myself, roughly along the lines of "unsound mind" and "holding public office" - and all the implicaitons of putting my medical problems on public record.
You might want to look into that before you put your name and mental status or mental complaints on any public records.
Thanks for all your posts here, Ryk, they have been helpful to me. Don't be scared of the "anniversary pulls" - they are a natural effect of trauma of any kind, particularly grief.
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