Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Rswinters1
()
Date: August 29, 2007 07:23AM
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skepticQuote
The Shadow
It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!
HAHAHAHA! It's not funny but I like how you put that. It's too true. Lgats take perfectly good people & screw them all up. I think your question is an excellent one: how do lgat-infected people relate to each other? I don't think they really do. They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true.
skeptic
I totally agree with this aspect. I had a situation where I was staffing Klemmers third seminar called Heart of a Samurai. One of the facilitators that I strongly admired (Brian Miller). Anyway, I don't need to get into the details, but in staffing with him during this seminar. I was caught completely off guard over what I will call an emptiness of his beingness that I fellt in a interaction during the seminar with him. It had to do with a logistical problem that arose from what the faciltator's told the participants and what actually happened in the actual process of seminar.
I don't need to go into the details of the situation. What struck me the most in this situation was the empty hollowness that I saw in his eyes, and soul in the interaction around the situation.
I admired the passion that he had towards Klemmers philosophy. But in this particular situation. I found out that it was all show and tell for him.
I have looked at this mans life, and have discovered there is much white washing going on in his life in many other areas.
Who cares that he is financially wealthy. Money is not everything, and you can still be a jerk with money.
Having money is not a guage to use in determining sucess in life. Those who feel that money is a guage for determining if someone is sucessful or not in life?
Money creates shallowness in people. Not depth, or integrity.
The virtues that matter in life have nothing to do with money.
It has to do with relationships. How we treat one another. That is the guage we need to use.
Money does help in life. But it is not what makes our life.
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Rswinters1
()
Date: August 29, 2007 07:37AM
Brian miller is in his late 40's and he is in and out of relationships in his life. He is a powerfully dynamic facilitator for Klemmer & Associates. Yet he is shallow and empty where intimate relationships go.
If this man is so wonderful as he pretends to be. He would not be a single man as he is at present.
His love life is kept off the radar. But, I have seen enough to know from my being involved in Klemmer that he goes through girlfriends like everything else in his life.
He is a user of people, women, and things. Other than his so called giving of himself as a facilitator in Klemmers seminars. Which is very emotionally appealing in the short run in getting to know him.
Yet, for me. As I got to know him and looked at his life outside of Klemmer.
I found myself wanting nothing to do with his views on life. I do not want to be a white washed tomb in relationships.
All you have in LGAT's participants and staff having relationships with each other is shallowness and that is all.
Because you can't have a relationship with those you can't resolve conflict with.
Relationship comes from being able to resolve conflicts with others.
This is what is missing in LGAT's philosophy. No where on these posts, or in LGAT's has there been a place, or post of how two opposing views on LGAT philosophy has been reached where there is an acceptance of two opposing views and allowed for a relationship to continue inspite of it.
Not so with this website. I am a living testimony of how this website promotes relationship in a healthy manner.
I had a conflict with some members on this forum. It got ugly and it got resolved without reaching an agreement in philosophy attained.
I still hold my views, and those who I had a conflict still hold there views. Yet, we have reached a mutual respect for one another in our differences.
This doesn't happen in LGAT's. But it does happen in the real world, and between people in a healthy environment that embraces negativity without shunning it like LGAT's do.
If this man is so wonderful as he pretends to be. He would not be a single man as he is at present.
His love life is kept off the radar. But, I have seen enough to know from my being involved in Klemmer that he goes through girlfriends like everything else in his life.
He is a user of people, women, and things. Other than his so called giving of himself as a facilitator in Klemmers seminars. Which is very emotionally appealing in the short run in getting to know him.
Yet, for me. As I got to know him and looked at his life outside of Klemmer.
I found myself wanting nothing to do with his views on life. I do not want to be a white washed tomb in relationships.
All you have in LGAT's participants and staff having relationships with each other is shallowness and that is all.
Because you can't have a relationship with those you can't resolve conflict with.
Relationship comes from being able to resolve conflicts with others.
This is what is missing in LGAT's philosophy. No where on these posts, or in LGAT's has there been a place, or post of how two opposing views on LGAT philosophy has been reached where there is an acceptance of two opposing views and allowed for a relationship to continue inspite of it.
Not so with this website. I am a living testimony of how this website promotes relationship in a healthy manner.
I had a conflict with some members on this forum. It got ugly and it got resolved without reaching an agreement in philosophy attained.
I still hold my views, and those who I had a conflict still hold there views. Yet, we have reached a mutual respect for one another in our differences.
This doesn't happen in LGAT's. But it does happen in the real world, and between people in a healthy environment that embraces negativity without shunning it like LGAT's do.
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
The Shadow
()
Date: August 30, 2007 01:53AM
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"skeptic" :"They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true. " skeptic[/quote
Hi skeptic;
that makes sense, i see that with my friend sometimes, the "facade", and that is when I don't recognize her, she just seems like a bright-eyed automaton, and I KNOW THIS GIRL WELL! - she even LOOKS different when she is in Landmark/EST mode, parroting away in her ESTie jargon.
So as I read your comment something came to me; feeling a lack of connection must make them feel really empty (spiritually), that explains the zeal with which they go into recruiting mode. That also explains why LGAT Grads keep coming over her, to try to find some real human connection.
Thanks, this gives me a better understanding, and maybe it will help me be more patient with them.
regards,
'shad'
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: August 30, 2007 02:26AM
Maxui wrote:
Is this the same 'cellular memory' that L. Ron Hubbard postulated as the basis for engrams?
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So I went to a presentation evening at her request. The thing that got me interested was the concept of cellular memory. I have mentioned before that I am a practitioner of Chinese Gong Fu and the idea that I could "absorb" knowledge into my very cells was extremely interesting to me.
Is this the same 'cellular memory' that L. Ron Hubbard postulated as the basis for engrams?
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: August 30, 2007 02:57AM
Question Lady wrote:
Its really good news that he sees through Larry Crane and has lost faith in the method! Does that mean he's stopped going to classes, dumped his releasing buddy, etc? Do you ever notice him using the techniques still, either consciously or unconsciounsly (maybe controlling his breathing, for example?)
My answer to your question, based on what happened to me, would have to be "Yes, it is necessary to know what happened to you to recover from it". Maybe not for everyone, but for me it was / is. And it sounds like your husband never truly shook off the scientology stuff, and maybe that was part of the attraction of The Sedona Method, the 'nice' parts of scientology that he maybe still longed for and / or believed in.
I had to take two steps - first I recognised that it "wasn't working for me" and that the trainers and training were flawed, and I got out. But that was like walking out of a prison but still acting and feeling like a prisoner, because I still believed the core of what they taught me and I had no idea I'd been conditioned. In retrospect that was only about ten percent "out". The rest came from reading this site, and really working at undoing all the ideas and 'automatic' responses and destructive feelings quest gave me. Now I feel about 70% "out". I still catch myself automatically thinking quest stuff, particularly when I am under stress or upset. And I still regularly read things here that I think / do and had forgotten that they actually from quest. The parts that still affect me are the parts that I haven't yet been able to dismantle intellectually, to see what the 'trick' was.
I also know other people who say they are out, but resort to using quest things under stress (for example, in an argument).
What has really helped me is going back and looking at the things I believed and took an interest in before quest. A lot of those things are quite contrary to quest, so I'm lucky. For example, Carl Sagan was one of my favourite authors, before quest. So now it helps to have that to use as a point of reference when I get a quest fog in my brain. I think religion has been similarly helpful to others, for example Rswinters taking a renewed interest and perspective in his christian faith.
Maybe your husband has similar lost / forgotten / over-ridden interests or beliefs, that you could discuss in terms of how contradictory the sedona method is to the other beliefs, and how odd it is that he came to believe all the sedona things so easily? This may lead him to at least consider that he was covertly conditioned. Maybe he's just got a case of "it couldn't happen to me" syndrome? So he reads things like 'snapping' and doesn't recognise himself there? It is a bit bewildering..
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The concepts sound just like The Release Technique - the mind is like a computer, past programming. They don't say "at cause" and "at effect' that i know of. (geez, talk about terms that no one outside the LGATcan understand) but rather 'ego' or 'ego/mind' versus "beingness". Several people, including my husband, have said it is similar to the scientology scale. And yes, i experienced the arrogance of the newly enlightened when I had any so called "negative" emotion - that I just needed to "release'.
It is frustrating. These programs are all so similar, yet my husband does not see in any way that there was covert persuasion. I wish I had taped him when he was 'in beingness" up so he could hear himself and the things he actually believed.
He now sees that Larry Crane lies, that the method does not deliver, but not that there was any covert mind control. Do you think it is necessary to know what happened to you in order to fully recover from it? I'm concerned that it is necessary and also in order to not get taken in again. And BTW, decades ago, my husband was in Scientology for a while - and yet here he goes again. And he owns "The Guru Papers" and "Snapping". I am at a loss.
Its really good news that he sees through Larry Crane and has lost faith in the method! Does that mean he's stopped going to classes, dumped his releasing buddy, etc? Do you ever notice him using the techniques still, either consciously or unconsciounsly (maybe controlling his breathing, for example?)
My answer to your question, based on what happened to me, would have to be "Yes, it is necessary to know what happened to you to recover from it". Maybe not for everyone, but for me it was / is. And it sounds like your husband never truly shook off the scientology stuff, and maybe that was part of the attraction of The Sedona Method, the 'nice' parts of scientology that he maybe still longed for and / or believed in.
I had to take two steps - first I recognised that it "wasn't working for me" and that the trainers and training were flawed, and I got out. But that was like walking out of a prison but still acting and feeling like a prisoner, because I still believed the core of what they taught me and I had no idea I'd been conditioned. In retrospect that was only about ten percent "out". The rest came from reading this site, and really working at undoing all the ideas and 'automatic' responses and destructive feelings quest gave me. Now I feel about 70% "out". I still catch myself automatically thinking quest stuff, particularly when I am under stress or upset. And I still regularly read things here that I think / do and had forgotten that they actually from quest. The parts that still affect me are the parts that I haven't yet been able to dismantle intellectually, to see what the 'trick' was.
I also know other people who say they are out, but resort to using quest things under stress (for example, in an argument).
What has really helped me is going back and looking at the things I believed and took an interest in before quest. A lot of those things are quite contrary to quest, so I'm lucky. For example, Carl Sagan was one of my favourite authors, before quest. So now it helps to have that to use as a point of reference when I get a quest fog in my brain. I think religion has been similarly helpful to others, for example Rswinters taking a renewed interest and perspective in his christian faith.
Maybe your husband has similar lost / forgotten / over-ridden interests or beliefs, that you could discuss in terms of how contradictory the sedona method is to the other beliefs, and how odd it is that he came to believe all the sedona things so easily? This may lead him to at least consider that he was covertly conditioned. Maybe he's just got a case of "it couldn't happen to me" syndrome? So he reads things like 'snapping' and doesn't recognise himself there? It is a bit bewildering..
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: August 30, 2007 03:17AM
exImpact wrote:
Thank you, ex. Same story at Quest South Africa, although - like all their other 'teachings' - not really explicitly explained, but implied through cryptic comments delivered in the middle of a highly controlled gestalty type atmosphere where the trainees are outnumbered by assistants, who act as if they represent the universe and respond in a way that is supposed to teach the lesson. It becomes more explicitly stated as you do more courses and assist more.
In the basic course it is presented only as "you chose your parents" and with the comment "you don't have to believe it, but if you choose to think that way you are more empowered, so you might as well... it doesn't have to be true" - but later on they make it into an Absolute Truth, Law of the Universe type thing.
This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.
By the way, I've always thought this was a light-worker / star people / ascended masters new agey type philosophy, I didn't figure it came from Mormons?? Though I know that Hinkins guy, the one who started Insight Training in the U.S. and the church of MSIA - movement for spiritual inner awareness - was originally a mormon, so maybe that's how it spread?
Any ideas anyone? LOL!! Maybe I've been a Mormon these past few years, and I didn't even know it! :lol: - Sorry, no offense - but I hear they don't allow drinking of tea coffee!? Never mind alcohol!
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This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called The Little Soul and the Sun.
Thank you, ex. Same story at Quest South Africa, although - like all their other 'teachings' - not really explicitly explained, but implied through cryptic comments delivered in the middle of a highly controlled gestalty type atmosphere where the trainees are outnumbered by assistants, who act as if they represent the universe and respond in a way that is supposed to teach the lesson. It becomes more explicitly stated as you do more courses and assist more.
In the basic course it is presented only as "you chose your parents" and with the comment "you don't have to believe it, but if you choose to think that way you are more empowered, so you might as well... it doesn't have to be true" - but later on they make it into an Absolute Truth, Law of the Universe type thing.
This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.
By the way, I've always thought this was a light-worker / star people / ascended masters new agey type philosophy, I didn't figure it came from Mormons?? Though I know that Hinkins guy, the one who started Insight Training in the U.S. and the church of MSIA - movement for spiritual inner awareness - was originally a mormon, so maybe that's how it spread?
Any ideas anyone? LOL!! Maybe I've been a Mormon these past few years, and I didn't even know it! :lol: - Sorry, no offense - but I hear they don't allow drinking of tea coffee!? Never mind alcohol!
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
skeptic
()
Date: August 30, 2007 03:37AM
Quote
SaneAgain
This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.
This INFURIATES me too! I think it is outrageous and I don't think it should be legal to do this!!!!!!!!!!
Because of this covert/deceptive "technique" I lost & wasted six years, thousands of dollars, part of my mind & personality, and was exploited & manipulated to recruit. The whole thing continues to infuriate me.
I don't know law but it really seems to me that what is wrong about what lgats do is something that crosses a line in terms of lawful behavior between people.
skeptic
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
skeptic
()
Date: August 30, 2007 03:41AM
One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she [i:a0a2c40418]cannot[/i:a0a2c40418] see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: August 30, 2007 04:18AM
Skeptic, you're right, its crazy. You try tell people they're brainwashed to believe they chose everything, and they say no, its not true, I chose to believe that :!:
As for the legal side - you need a license to charge someone for a haircut, or to fix their plumbing, but turning people's minds and personalities inside out - :?:
As for the legal side - you need a license to charge someone for a haircut, or to fix their plumbing, but turning people's minds and personalities inside out - :?:
Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Rswinters1
()
Date: August 30, 2007 05:25AM
Quote
skeptic
One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she [i:1363e1220d]cannot[/i:1363e1220d] see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!
This is why I believe that having the discussion on what the LGAT's are doing to participants is like what my therapist has told me. You can't understand a trauma bond from within the trauma bond. Meaning you can't understand why there is a conflict from within the conflict.
It is a given that LGAT's are brainwashing us in these seminars. Those of us who have undergone this brainwashing and have come out of it. We know we have been brainwashed by our LGAT experience.
Even thought this forum is helpful in exposing these LGAT's. I have discoverd the most helpful way to face the brainwashing wihtin me, and to deprogram from its affect upon my life.
I have had to get very down and dirty with myself. I have had to face what it was in me that attracted me to an LGAT to find the answers that I heard Klemmer had for my life.
I think if we can start to become brutally honest about what each of us was searching for as we got lured to the light of these LGAT's in our individual lifes.
If we don't start sharing from that aspect on this forum. I believe we will sound like a bunch of complainers that are disgruntled with our LGAT experience.
There is much on this forum, and much in the many experiences that expose the lies and deception of LGAT's for readers.
I would like to hear from the many members who are mad at their LGAT experience as I am. I would love to hear honesty about what was the magnetic pull that was attracted within each of us to blindly allow ourselves to be so brainwashed.
Mine was the relational pain that was between my mother an me. Plus the pain of what I kept creating in marriages as I kept marrying my mother and running into the extreme emotional pain from the abuse coming from them.
I am finally seperating myself from the prime source of abuse in my life. My Mother!
In doing so. I am identifying the magnet within myself that pulled me to my destructive LGAT experience.
Well others please share about this aspect in your own life? I would really like to hear this, and believe it will help expose these LGAT's for what they are.
Please share.
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