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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: July 13, 2007 04:37AM

Brad wrote:


In my experience, one of the biggest "weapons" used against participants on these courses is this:

A person's greatest fear is identified. Invariably that comes from a past experience in life. The person does not want to go through a similar experience again. However, it is revisited in many ways on a course, including long meditations that take the person back to that time and place. Then, actions are put into place to prevent that experience happening again.

What is in fact happening is the person is then put into a state of fear of that situation because they are forced to experience it once more. Something like meditations can be very powerful in revisiting it.

Everything that is done from that point on is geared towards preventing the situation of the greatest fear happening again. And it is done from a position of fear. People are not empowered; their power is taken away from them.

This is very true. Quest claims to "transform fear into power". I think the process is that you are supposed to be pushed into a fear, then dissociate to escape that fear, forming a 'new' self. The new self is indicated by words or body language or behaviour that will stop the attack. The 'new' behaviour that is completely identified with and approved by the trainers. By doing that you are giving all your power to the trainers and assistants, suspending your own judgement and identity and instincts, just to stop the attack. And this supposedly makes a person fear-free and empowered.

In the controlled training environment the trainer appears to be all-powerful and many people on leaving the training take on characteristics of the trainer - talking in his/her speech patterns, mimicking their body language, using their words, repeating their statements and opinions. And gradually people learn the rules of the training and know how to act, think and speak in a way that gains the trainers' approval.

If someone doesn't take on the trainer's identity and follow the rules they are soon surrounded by mini-trainer-clones, all giving 'feedback' to 'support' them to be 'the best that they can be'.

This is not power. Its what primates do when they're scared of a bully - they copy the bully's general behaviour as a signal of submission and they also copy the bullying behaviour on others further down the pecking order.

It might be natural in the animal kingdom but it is a totally disgusting technique to use to make money under the guise of teaching people how to improve their lives.

At the end of the power lecture Buster always says " now go out and express your power and get another person to register for the next quest".


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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: July 13, 2007 04:46AM

As for people mimicking the trainers after the training - Skeptic quoted this on another thread:


The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by
its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which
blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves. D. James

I have to add: the most perfect slave are those blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves .... [i:39160e83fb]and each other[/i:39160e83fb].

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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: July 13, 2007 05:08AM

As for people mimicking the trainers after the training - Skeptic quoted this on another thread:


The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by
its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which
blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves. D. James

I have to add: the most perfect slave are those blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves .... [i:25376bf7cb]and each other[/i:25376bf7cb].

If we want the insanity of that kind of enslavement with others who refuse to face the brainwashing within themselves from LGAT's.

In my case I am not accepting it within my wife, or from her. Thus why are marriage is over as she has filed for divorce.

She wants the ability to live and do as she pleases. She doesn't want limits of a healthy marriage needs to have.

Thus the LGAT's (Klemmer & Associates) mindset and philosphy lets her choose divorce and trash a marriage that is our second marriage with each other to boot.

She has gone VICTIM BIG TIME and is being reinforced by her newfound Klemmer buddies.

Oh but like Klemmer will say. She is just accepting her greatness.

That works. Klemmer says it builds ethical leaders with no one left behind.

Accept in this case. But that is not Klemmers fault, or my wifes fault. Its mine.

Funny how the "NO ONE IS VICTIM, AND YOUR AT CAUSE" gets twisted and used in manipulative ways in some relationships.

Yes, there is a little anger going on here.

If you had to go through what I have, and the many others on this site.

You would have anger also.

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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: July 15, 2007 11:48PM

This post from Corboy on another thread is so good I think it should be posted under every lgat's thread. Corboy wrote:


Post subject: To Understand One LGAT is to Understand All or Most LGATs


RSwinters wrote:

I for one have found each and every LGAT topic thread very good information for all LGAT's.

This is important. Because...nearly all human potential groups/LGATs
claim to be unique.

A very important step in recovery takes place when it is possible for a person to see that his or her group experience was not unique and that it can be compared with other groups.

This insight is very difficult to arrive at, because when we've given our hearts to a group and have the awful discovery that we've been seen and used as objects/income generating-units, this feeling of betrayal is painful and shaming. One way to defend against the shame of finding oneself used and betrayed is to cling, to convince oneself that the experience was special, educational, or a great adventure.

Its a come-down to face that one was had, and that the experience is far from unique. But...if you can stand the pain of recognizing this, you then get to find out loads of people have been through it too, which means, you have a community you can reach out to.

It is a liberating eye opener to find that your particular group is not unique because with that mindset, you then become able to study the 'comparative anatomy' of different groups and see that the external plumage ( verbiage, doctrine of groups) has quite a variety of colors but underneath, the skeleton (recruitment process, room set up, lack of informed consent, signing away rights to seek damages if harmed) ..all that remains quite similar underneath the seeming diversity.

A seminary professor who taught a course on the conversion process had a favorite phrase:

"Same hardware, different software"

* Claims to be unique and often, subtle put-downs of all other groups, and also subtle put downs of all other methods for healing or self development

* Recruitment through friendship networks or work relationships--which means the risk of stressing valued relationships if you dont want to participate or have misgivings

*Being given the bum's rush/hardsell

*A tightly scripted social set up disguised as a spontaneous one

*May include a very, very anal retentive room set up with chairs in precise rows. all external stimuli blocked out, chairs re-arranged when
people depart, having to sit closer together than what is considered normal distance for your culture's physical distances between individuals.

*Demanding intimate, private information from subjects without any written contract from the group promising to safeguard confidential information--very different from professional health care providers and psychotherapists who are legally accountable for confidentiality and who arrange for clients and patients to sign paperwork defining and protecting their confidentiality

***LGAT subjects often sign away their rights, as citizens to sue for damages in event of their being harmed by participation in the LGAT event. No medical or therapy patient EVER signs away his or her right to seek damages if harmed by treatment received.

Thus many LGATs use the language and powerful techniques of psychotherapy and accept no responsibility for thier use of such power in event that subjects are harmed.

Professional healers wield their power in a context of accountability and responsibility

LGATs wield their power and refuse to accept accountability for use of that power and for any harm done.

*Subjects are made to feel powerful, but are not given actual preparation or any encouragement in the LGAT to think consciously about power itself or the way it is exercised. For subjects in an LGAT, power is just an induced mood, a rush. The LGAT keeps its own mits on the actual process of exercising power. If subjects dare to examine the process, they are shamed for being negative--when what they are doing is trying to become conscious of the very thing the LGAT does not want them to actually see.

In LGAT's power, for subjects is an induced and addictive mood.

In reality, power is about process, relationships, resources and information--and who has more and who has less. LGATs control this
and dont want subjects to look closely at the process dimension of power--they only want subjects to get lost and dependent on the mood of feeling powerful.

Subjects are made to feel powerful but actual power remains with the LGAT. You are only free to speak up if you validate the LGAT. LGATs speak the language of power but retain it for themselves.

LGATs speak the language of accountability but in practice LGATs dont seem to feel themselves accountable--but they do make sure to make subjects feel accountable--and subtly, for subjects 'accountability' in an LGAT is separated from personal power and agency and accountability in the LGAT is linked to deep feelings of personal shame, and fear of failing in relation to the LGAT.

LGATs speak of caring and compassion but do not in practice demonstrate an ethos of care in relation to their subjects. If you fail or feel messed up by the LGAT, you are made to feel it is your fault. In professional healing, the provider takes this as a signal to question the treatment strategy, perhaps seek more information by ordering additional tests, and brining other providers in for consutation.

*If there is success, the LGAT takes full credit. By contrast, a true professional healer assists clients and patients to identify their role in the process of healing so clients can retain as much personal agency and autonomy during the process and then the same or increased personal agency and autonomy afterwards.

*Confrontati0n, pushing rapidly for intense emotion, instant intimacy, hectic pace, not enough time to sleep little or no opportunity to think, and possibly being shadowed by a minder

*Pushing people to spend more money than they are comfortable with

*Shaming and ridicule for anyone who disagrees or hesitates--which reproduces/re-enacts life in an abusive family--which can cause persons already harmed by prior abuse to re-enact, either as bully/perpetrators or by submitting to the abuse and intenalizing blame. THe presons in an LGAT who re-enact as bully perpetrators end up wanting to become leaders in the organization. The ones who re-enact as recipients of abuse become the people who work themselves to nervous collapse trying to please the organization, the way a desperate child tries to satisfy a miserable parent.

*Not being told how the process works, which means you dont have any way to give informed consent--a very important matter for persons who risk having physical or psychological health destablized by stress, confrontation and lack of sleep.


(Retired Moderator)

All the features listed above apply to Quest. The only thing I'd disagree with is the statement that the software differs from lgat to lgat and ...

the external plumage ( verbiage, doctrine of groups) has quite a variety of colors

For all the groups derived from est it seems even the software and plumage is the same. (I guess this differs in things like Anthony Robbins).

In reading about Lifespring, Impact, PSI seminars, Klemmer & Associates, Landmark and Choices I've found the following processes and games from Quest being used:

* dyads
* buddy / angel system
* nothing games
* red-black game
* feedback arcs / platform feedback
* reverse dressing
* contracts
* stretches / theatre
* Lifeboat / raft
* giver-taker
* essence walk

And the script - concepts and jargon - is sometimes word for word the same. Common phrases and cliches used in Quest and other lgats:

* Understanding is the booby prize
* Inquest / other training is not for the faint-hearted
* integrity, commitment, agreements, responsibility - redefined
* being at cause
* going to the source
* get off it / get over yourself
* assisting vs helping
* intention vs trying / goals
* there are no victims
* you chose everything that ever happened in your life
* law of attraction
* it works for me / doesn't work for me
* don't judge
* experience is more valid than knowledge
* accepting your greatness / power
* resistance and surrender

To name just a few.

However in a way these games and concepts are almost diversions because the skeleton of the training that Corboy described are actually what make the training effective and keep the organisations going.

Thanks Corboy.

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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: July 17, 2007 02:11AM

There is some discussion about the Lifeboat process on the Impact Training thread here:


And some notes on the red-black game at Klemmer & Associates and PSI Seminars over here:


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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: July 19, 2007 01:49AM

I've posted an extract of "The Jesus Mysteries" on this thread about the origins of LGAT:


Its about the Eleusian Mystery Schools in Greece and their initiation rituals, which have many features in common with modern large group awareness training.

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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: August 11, 2007 04:12AM

Some discussion about name-tags and contracts (on the Impact thread) starting here:


Here is a link to a general outline of training similar to Quest and Inquest (and many other trainings):


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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: August 13, 2007 12:38AM

I'm busy working through some resources from "The Lucifer Effect" on resisting unwanted influence. I'm finding them very helpful in understanding how I was manipulated into Quest and how to avoid similar manipulation in the future. I've started posting some of the hints and guidelines on this thread about the Lucifer Effect:


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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: Maxui ()
Date: August 13, 2007 07:22PM


I am a graduate of one of these workshops.

I did the first workshop and the second and I can honestly say that they helped my change my life for the better.

The first few weeks afterwards I was a bit concerned that I had joined a cult because the modus operandi is quite similar to that that defines a cult.
however there are fundamental differences, well in the way the workshops were run for me anyway.

Not once was I harassed to come back and assist neither was I forced to commit to bring people to the presentation nor did I feel any pressure to do the second workshop after I had completed the first.

Having said that I do feel sympathy for SaneAgain and others who have had bad experiences.

After having read some of the processes you went through they are exactly the same thing that I did and yes I was confused and I was in chaos and for me that worked - it got me out of a destructive mindset (my words not the trainers) and provided me with the tools to see how I was sabotaging my life. The choice to change was and still is my own. A choice I would not have seen had I not done this work.

I am now in a loving relationship holding down the job of my dreams and clear on where I am in Life and where I need to go.

Again Please don't get me wrong, what I see from these posts is either that the workshops are not for everyone or that everyone is not in a place yet where they would be beneficial.

For me, sitting on a couch while a shrink asked me about how I felt did not cut it.

Perhaps there should be a pre workshop 'test' to see if the participant is ready to face their demons and if not be deferred until they are? *shurg*

anyway back tot he issue of "cult" after looking into this question I came up with an answer that "works for me" :)

If, indeed this is a cult and it produces people (for the most part in my experience) who come out into the world saysing things like " I am Love" or "I am Peace"

sign me up :)

thanks for reading :D

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Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: August 13, 2007 11:40PM

Hi Maxui,

What does *shurg* mean?

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