Thanks for the site & information! To add a bit of clarity to people wanting to know more about The Centre of light/Insight Training Centre that present the Turning Point, Joyspring & Mile courses. Insight is run by Dr. Burach Bania.
Insight is a New Age Training Centre where people's lives are "transformed" over an initial 5 day intensive course.

My wife attended and I must say that it has introduced a lot of strife in our home. It looks like our relationship is moving in two opposite directions.

I did a small test on my wife relating to her experience over the 5 days, and Baruch Bania appears to be using brainwashing techniques (LGAT) on people. On the last day as per my wife, he introduces the standard levels of new age spirituality, and may touch on reincarnation. Family and friends are invited to attend on the last evening to present a gift to the student, but it appears as if it is only family & friends that have completed the course are invited. The Sunday afternoon, while students are reach their high, they will be encouraged to sign up for the next course "Joyspring". After attending this course, they will know their purpose in life.




I believe Buruch & his staff should inform prospective students that they are going to be subjected to a process that is similar to brainwashing, if not brainwashing. They should also be notified that they will be subjected to the New Age Religion's teachings. They should also be told that the course could negatively affect their relationships.

Burach Believes the following: (I have looked at two of his books)
He deceives people by stating that Insight is not Religious.
He Believes in: Reincarnation,
He speaks to his loved one's that have passed on.
He also gives definitions of words that are incorrect and deceptive.

i.e. Crises means a turning point or Danger with opportunity but according to my "beginners" research, it actually means "danger, be wary" (or run away --- fast).

People that follow the New Age Religion will possibly enjoy his course.
People that like to keep their wits about them, and are sceptical who knows?
Some students may also come out of the process as vegetarians.

Friends who have attended, have encouraged me to attend, and to only take out what I feel is good for me. They indicate that I cannot make any judgements on Turning Point until I have attended the course. What puzzles me is that they simply ignore his shaky points & deception, including my wife who now wants to attend the next JoySpring.

Q. did American death row prisoners really take part in a experiment where they were blind folded, water poured over a imaginary cut in the wrists and they died? (proving how powerful the mind can be).

Q. Does the word decide/decision mean "to Kill"

These two question/stories were used in his introductory evening.

:x

Hello weiji, thank you for all the information you've added here and for stating the problems so clearly.

If you haven't already seen this, there are some good suggestions here for helping people in cults (they apply equally well to people in lgats):

[www.culteducation.com]

During your research into crisis = danger + opportunity did you see this article, written by a Sinologist?

[pinyin.info]

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Thanks for reminding me about this, they also corrupted the words 'crisis' and 'decide' on Quest, plus a whole host of other words. I've never heard the death-by-water story before, but those types of stories are really common. Drives me nuts. I used to believe half of them, not because I'm stupid but because I could never really imagine that people would make up such ridiculous lies - very naive. I hope you don't mind if I quote that article about the word crisis:

There is a widespread public misperception, particularly among the New Age sector, that the Chinese word for "crisis" is composed of elements that signify "danger" and "opportunity." ...

A whole industry of pundits and therapists has grown up around this one grossly inaccurate formulation. A casual search of the Web turns up more than a million references to this spurious proverb. It appears, often complete with Chinese characters, on the covers of books, on advertisements for seminars, on expensive courses for "thinking outside of the box," and practically everywhere one turns in the world of quick-buck business, pop psychology, and orientalist hocus-pocus. This catchy expression (Crisis = Danger + Opportunity) has rapidly become nearly as ubiquitous as The Tao of Pooh and Sun Zi's Art of War for the Board / Bed / Bath / Whichever Room...

[b:4c36057063]Thus, a wēijī is indeed a genuine crisis, a dangerous moment, a time when things start to go awry. A wēijī indicates a perilous situation when one should be especially wary. It is not a juncture when one goes looking for advantages and benefits[/b:4c36057063].

So... yes, weiji, when someone is involved in an lgat, this is the perfect word to use, based on its real meaning. Great name, just grim that you need to be using it.


weiji, I really hope you can dissuade your wife from doing Joyspring. On the advanced course they artifically create very intense, intimate experiences that cannot be shared with 'outsiders' and so create a problem in the relationship even if there is no other harm done. And the problem is that for the person who has that experience it feels real (and is mixed with real emotions) and it feels positive, so it can be easy to alienate that person if you are too negative and critical - remember that even though its all a con its still her real feelings that were messed with in the course. I think maybe that help page link says the same thing and I'm plagiarising :)

It may also be helpful for you to read through the threads on PSI seminars, because most of those posts are about relationship problems from lgats, and PSI is very similar to quest which is in turn very similar to Joyspring.

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Friends who have attended, have encouraged me to attend, and to only take out what I feel is good for me. They indicate that I cannot make any judgements on Turning Point until I have attended the course. What puzzles me is that they simply ignore his shaky points & deception, including my wife who now wants to attend the next JoySpring.

A core part of the brainwashing is that ~experience~ is more powerful and real and all-round better than anything else, including reason and what most people would call normal emotion. They say its the only reality and that's where the power lies - blah blah. Once they have people convinced of that, then its as you described, they just ignore any facts or skeptical questions or points.

May I ask how your wife was recruited? And when is the next Joyspring, how much time do you have available to dissuade her? Where is Baruch running his courses from, that center of light in Midrand or somewhere else?

Thanks again for your message weiji.

I have just spoken to a friend about Baruch Banai. The man has some interesting history.

My friend did courses in about 1992/92 in Durban, South Africa, led by Banai.

The name of the organisation presenting the courses? [b:580cb6b1fe]est[/b:580cb6b1fe]!

A number of others who were involved with est at that time have gone on to start other LGATs. The name Pat Grove came up. Grove, of course, is connected to Wendy and Buster Sefor of Quest.

Banai left Durban under a cloud because he was using the courses to seduce women. That behaviour caught up to him and he made a duck.

There were also some problems raised about financial issues, but my friend does not have inside information on that, excepting that he could tell me that there was mismanagement of some sort.

Amazing! This is the integrity that the "spiritual leaders" of the LGAT industry in South Africa offer.

Hi to all,

found this forum while searching for info on Quest, Inquest, etc.
their site [quest-seminars.co.za] has virtually no information beyond for their bank account.

Clearly it seems to be an lgat .
My (half-)sister is attending the Inquest program. Her other side of the family is into in/quest stuff.
They are somewhat secretive about it and more pushy than she is.

Since we are close, I'm looking for some help on
1. what to expect when she comes back
2. how should one handle a fresh inquest member/victim?
3. Especially helpful would be to know what kind of InQuest-talk to expect ?

Looking back, its almost frightening to expect hearing nonsense talk (ex. "send out a mind wave to...")
becoming more important and real.

most of you on this thread have a better understanding of (In)Quest, any advice ?

thinkfirst

In my previous post, I tried to hide my relationship with the person attending a Inquest seminar by misrepresenting it.
It is not my half-sister, but my girl friend for which I care very much.

Well, my friend is back now, in a mess.
She had a breakdown in the Inquest course (and afterwards too), from the the abuse and the overall experience.
Is still experiencing panic attacks and was so shaky that she couldn't function afterwards.
She is taking a mild anxiolytic for the attacks.
About a week has now passed since the seminar.

Also, strangely Inquest was terminated early on the 4th day. The reason given was
that the group had broken the rules !??
She says that the course was kinda dumped/terminated.
I wonder what the real reasons were. I bet it was self-interest.

She is now in a very vulnerable position, with self doubts, etc. There is also some confusion about the good moments (highs).
My feeling is that she is trying to rationalize the experience, but it isn't working for her.

Surprisingly, she wants to talk - especially after gently revealing to her on a number of things about Quest
were not a secret any more. (Mostly from this thread ! Thanks !)
Others have also pointed out that it is a positive sign.

She is still in danger of further breakdown or some kind of episode and needs a lot of help and support.

think first

Hello thinkitfirst,

I see its been a week since your last message and another week since the seminar, so hopefully your girlfriend is more stable by now? If its any reassurance, it is "normal" for people to be non-functional after inquest and if it is a "bad" inquest (which this one must've been for it to end early), then it is normal for them to be panicky.

It sounds like you've done the right thing by not being too severely anti quest and also listening to her and telling her what you know about it. I'm not sure how to advise you as I had an extremely bad experience and would like to warn you that if she doesn't improve soon its really important for her to see someone who can help her - at the same time most people don't have as severe effects as I did, so I don't want to make you panic unnecessarily. But if your feeling is that she is still in danger then it would be a good idea to speak to a doctor or a psychiatrist, but only if you are very sure to first:

1. Make sure they have not themselves done quest or another lgat and are not involved in one
2. Make sure your girlfriend is able to tell them enough to give them an indication of the severity and nature of what she's been through. If you're not sure how to explain it, the easiest way is to say its kind of like est, where they lock you in a room and try to break you down then build you up again. That normally rings some bells.
3. Ask whether they know anything about cults or lgats, and if not, ask whether they would be willing to read up on them.

Inquest ends early if anybody in the group breaks a ground rule, usually a rule regarding being on time for sessions but sometimes other rules. The problem with that is the whole seminar is used to build up a false sense that everything the people in the group do goes out into the universe as some kind of energy and they are placed under severe guilt and judgement if they break any agreements (aka rules) because breaking agreements is what causes all the death pain and suffering in the world so if they break agreements then they are sending that energy in the world etc etc. On top of that they are all responsible for each other, not only themselves.

I don't know if that information helps at all; if she can tell you more about what happened to end inquest early you may be able to help her see how silly it is, but it may also make her feel she's breaking yet another agreement, and make her feel more guilt and panic (the universe sends back what you send out, according to quest, what I call making the universe sound like the mafia.)

Since the first half of inquest is aimed at breaking people down, and the second part at building them up, the other problem with an inquest that ends early is that there is less building up, and therefore more risk of the person being left in a "broken" state. On the other hand there is less time to cement a new false self so it may be a blessing that she went on one that ended early.

I'm not sure any of this helps very much. What I remember most is that it was an excruciatingly painful assault that left me very vulnerable and fragile and confused; afterwards I felt everything more intensely and most of the feelings were not good. I also remember feeling often that I was floating, or disconnected from myself and the world and everything in it, as if I'd lost my anchor. Logic and reason and quiet rationality can be very comforting when you feel that, its also helpful because inquest literally brainwashes you into magical thinking, which may sound charming but is anything but that, especially when you're feeling frightened - when you're scared its better if the world behaves according to real world rules, not horror movie magical ones. So calm logic and common senes is helpful.

More important though is to be very gentle and non-judgemental, because people are truly truly fragile after these things; they destroy all your defences, expose old wounds and create new ones. And even though nothing they teach or do in inquest is real, the experience is real for the person who lives through it, and it creates a lot of illusions that become reality. If you mock them in any way then it can destroy her confidence in her ability to understand the world around her and trust her own judgement, so it has to be slow and gentle. Rather err on the side of gentleness, than try to force her to see flaws with it or reject it all out of hand.

I am terribly sorry there are still people going through this. Thank you for writing here, I hope your girlfriend is already feeling less shaky and is no longer in danger of a breakdown of any kind.

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thinkitfirst
She is now in a very vulnerable position, with self doubts, etc. There is also some confusion about the good moments (highs).
My feeling is that she is trying to rationalize the experience, but it isn't working for her.
think first

The problem with rationalizing is that it takes the emotions out of things, and thereby makes them smaller. What they do on inquest can never be made small or unemotional so a rationalization will never "make sense" in an intuitively acceptable way. They say inquest is "profound" experience and in a sense it is. The dictionary defines profound as:

1. penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding: a profound thinker.
2. originating in or penetrating to the depths of one's being; profound grief.
3. being or going far beneath what is superficial, external, or obvious: profound insight.
4. of deep meaning; of great and broadly inclusive significance

In day to day interactions most of our responses and feelings are fairly superficial, we say and do things that are designed to protect our inner feelings and to promote the idea we have in our minds of what we are. If you are forced into a situation where you are not allowed to do that, you have to dig deeper, and deeper and deeper until you get a response that is acceptable to the trainers and the group. Each person will therefore access some profound level of themselves, whether they like it or not, and expose that to the group. The advantage of this to quest is that if they push you into a very deep and positive response, even for a moment, they can tie that feeling to Quest itself. By that time all the concepts and goals of quest are neatly arranged in your mind as one total and self contained package, so you buy the whole thing at once. All the concepts and goals are designed to be mutually inclusive and exclusive of everything else - if you accept one aspect of quest you have to accept all of it, if you reject one aspect you have to reject all of it. All the goals and concepts are designed to perpetuate quest. They are not designed to help the individual leave a happier life. They are however designed very accurately to lead the person to believe that quest gives them a happier life, because that belief in each member perpetuates quest. Maybe some even do, but never all. The other thing is that it is not designed to "work" for everybody in the group (by "work" I mean create the illusion that it was a fantastic experience") - part of the group dynamic they deliberately use is scape-goating, for example. Unfortunate for that individual, but effective in manipulating the other people (the odds are still in quest's favour).

Inquest is traumatic, and traumatic things do have profound effects. There are plenty people who say they had great insights, discovered things about themselves they knew, changed their whole lives etc after some terrible even, eg being raped at gunpoint, car accidents, other near-death experiences. Its a normal and natural part of human nature to have profound things within ourselves, that come to the fore under stress. It is not normal and natural to exploit that quality in people for profit and power. And the amount of impact from inquest that comes from a moment or two of feeling profound, is miniscule compared to the real effect, which is the bulk download of the entire quest package, for the benefit of quest.

Also, some of what feels profound may in fact be profound but is largely a chemical reaction - the endorphins etc, the shock effect, all that. So though it felt real, and may have had some genuine elements of profundity, the intensity of it is largely a chemical reation and that in itself may make things that were quite ordinary appear to be profound.

The other "profound" thing that happens when you're put in a traumatic situation is bonding. I'm sure you've seen movies of people in planes about to crash, sharing their deepest dreams and so on. Well, the fact is, when you're about to die (or have been humiliated to a point of near-death) you can't be too discerning about who you trust. Plus it doesn't matter since you're about to die. So people bond. Its real, but in real life we need to be discerning, and carefully choose who we want to bond with, not just bond with an arbitrary gathering of people thrown together by chance into a group. Quest gets around that by saying that at a spiritual level everyone chose to be in the group they were in. Bollocks.

So its doesn't help to try to rationalize it too much, to understand exactly what happened how and worse, what it all means. That can literally drive a person crazy. (Everything single tiny detail in inquest is treated as deeply symbolic and coming from the higher self or spiritual energy world, so there is plenty of stuff that might mean something but probably doesn't). What you can do is get an understanding of the big picture (humans have deep and profound response to life, my deep nature was exploited for profit), and some of the tricks. For example some of the techniques they use have been around for centuries, used to convert people to different religions (revivalism, probably also secret societies) Whether you agree with evangelical religion or not, the point is there is a specific scientifically repeatable methodology that gets people to believe they've seen god, or whatever, and the funny thing is people see different gods depending on who is practising the techniques on them. I'm not religious but if I were I'd say they'd seen a false god, because the religious texts I've read all say you don't need to pay someone to communicate with God, and I'm pretty sure God would be pretty pissed off to find a bunch of over-priviliged middle class people interrupting him for a quick meeting in the middle of a self-improvement seminar).

To get back to rationalising and being profound, if you look at the definition one of the main things is "deep" as opposed to surface or superficial. Inquest attempts to DESTROY the surface and superficial to get to the other stuff. That doesn't happen in a natural trauma, you don't have to destroy one part of yourself to "discover" you had another nice part you never knew about. On inquest they always destroy something. But the surface and superficial things are part of us, they're actually indicators of the deeper things. You can't destroy the outside, make it out all to be bad, then say the inside is "magnificent", and expect people to continue in life with any kind of true integrity ie wholeness. Worse, the people running inquest are not experts, and they can quite cheerfully destroy deeper parts of a person, or the whole person, without ever getting any meaningful genuine profound response.

I've rambled on enough, the point is some things aren't easy to explain rationally but sometimes its not necessary. We used electricity long before we knew how it works. People have discovered a set of techniques for brainwashing people by inducing highs and lows and intense experiences, exploiting aspects of human nature we don't fully understand yet. You don't have to know how the techniques worked exactly, only that techniques were used on you for the purpose of perpetuating Quest, not necessarily in your interest and not necessarily because there is any value in them. The most benevolent motivation I can think of for people who run lgats is that they believe they are brainwashing people into being good. Regardless - they have an agenda, and they make trainees into tools of their agenda and that really stinks.

My last thought (I promise) is that I've read several articles saying that lgats deliberately regress people to a child-like state. My theory is that they do this to a certain age (maybe about five or something) on quest, then take people further back on inquest (to pre-verbal pre-rational state). So if pre-rational elements of people are penetrated by inquest, then rationality is not a good tool for helping to fix those parts. But gentleness can help, I think.

I've had a pretty good read through some of the posts in this forum and find it all quite fascinating.

A couple years ago I attended the Quest seminar and was thoroughly impressed and 'high' with Quest philosophy and the course. The thing I just couldn't shake from my mind was whether the whole thing was just a 'feel-good' thing that was playing perfectly to every human beings' innate-ness and so on. In other words everything mentioned in the previous post by SaneAgain.

Over time I had many second-thoughts and I couldn't really discern whether Quest was a genuine 'miracle' or a money-making scheme using our innate emotional vulnerability. I still don't know. My new-found 'attitude' lost me my best-friend at the time and seemed to temporarily isolate me from a lot of my friends. Yet, none of that has had any negative effect on my life as I know it now.

I felt that, yes, it was indeed involving a (semi)traumatic experience that when, once 'completed', allowed for huge relief and sense of well-being and bonding etc. A lot of the concepts and games can really shake a person up if they're expecting anything less.

All said, I still cannot come to any conclusion about whether Quest is necessarily a 'bad' or 'good' thing. People leave with a high and have sometimes a temporary and sometimes prolonged, if not a permanent sense of well-being (most of them at least. I know that not all people leave happy). Does it really matter how a person gets that way? Group Spa Treatments, Teambuilding events etc. are essentially similar programs that generally end up with the same result. People form lasting 'groups' and have profound experiences at these events and no one seems to question that sort of profundity. Don't take this either way. I'm certainly not defending Quest here! I'm just very intrigued. Perhaps some one can make clear for me where the deceit lies?

I sometimes think that somehow they really are performing an extensive money-making scheme that when they refer to "the work", means genuine research that was done in how to identify human vulnerability and exploit it (disguised as 'doing good') without the individuals better knowledge. The bigger question is: Were the leaders drawn into thinking they was 'doing good' too?? Perhaps they really believe they are doing good? I've read that 'this work' is a derivative of American research. Who knows what this work was originally intened for when it was first used in America.

With regards to Quest's cult-like appearance, I'm inclined to think that it is a very natural thing for people to inherently make and isolate as a social-group (like a religion or cult) as a form of identity regardless of whether it's a 'leader's' intention or not. Identity is a vital human need. (Search Maslow's Triangle) People can't help it, so it looks like the leader is manipulating people where he really has nothing to do with what people do once they leave the seminar. People find common-ground/identity in the Quest experience and perhaps naturally start using a 'talk', and a 'way' etc. Is it really the Quest leader who wishes to create some sort of following with it's own 'talk' and 'rules' and 'ways' and so on OR is it just people like me or you who naturally seek to form a common-identity? (The examples are endless!) Once again I'm just posing questions.

Finally, Quest has been running for well over a decade as far as I can tell, why is it that there are so few ( I've counted 6) disgruntled people who have posted on this site? I might have expected significantly more forums and anti-Quest material on the net. Anyone know of more sites where I might be able to find more information and views on Quest?



Thanks for your input into this subject! :)
CuriousBob

CuriousBob:

Quest has been described as an LGAT (large group awareness training) or mass marathon training program.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The clinical psychologist that wrote this research paper "isolated 13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:

1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.

4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions."

Moreover "groups were determined to be dangerous when:

1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, 'blaming the victim.'"

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

Many former LGAT pariticipants have said that the group they were in used coercive persuasion techniques.

A Staford University professor identified "the key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:

1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance

2. The use of an organized peer group

3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity

4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified."

Coercive persuasion, also called "thought reform," is quite different from education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a chart prepared by psychologist Margaret Singer.

Note the distinctions.

Most LGATs are run by for profit privately owned companies.

They are typically not subject to licensing or regulation, as are licensed professionals, such as marriage and family therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists.

IMO -- People are safer going with licensed professionals and support groups facilitated by licensed professionals available through local social services, colleges, community centers or hospital services.

I have completed both Quest and Inquest in the last 6 months and well....

After Quest, I was on a high of note (or what I thought to be a high)... I thought that this was an amazing experience, even tried to recruit all the people I know onto the program so I could share my experience with them... A question someone asked me, why you can’t share with me... I was under the impression and brainwashed to believe that they would not understand and would ruin the experience for this person. I thought that Quest allowed for me to communicate better with my partner at the time however he had also attended Quest, so I guess the communication was on the same level with all the usual terms, “it’s your choice and I’m fine with it”... Now looking back at this, was it just a false sense of communication?

I lost my individuality and almost lost someone special as well as becoming a Quest robot..... I also recruited two friends to do Quest who have subsequently done Inquest as well.

Then Inquest.... Although, I think Inquest did not impact on me to greatly, the experience was something else. Obviously in my ignorance of the methods and techniques used by LGAT's groups, thought that this was part of the "process” Sitting back and reflecting and thinking about the stuff I went through, still trying to figure this out.

Coming across this forum and reading the threads has opened my eyes... I think I am fortunate in the sense that I have someone that questioned the entire situation and questioned me on things and somehow seeing that my mind is still there... Reading the forum, made me angry and confused but enlightened and empowered as I realised that I am able to save myself and still have my mind, I need to remove the templating and get on the road to normalisation. I always had questions on some of the concepts of which were not answered and did not like to apply them i.e. clearing... Why sit in a circle and say what u wanna say and not be able to discuss and debate with the other individual... But the amazing thing is who could I ask the questions to, … You would get the same standard response, its your choice and all the bullsh&t that they feed you, the definitions of responsibility, “I am responsible for everything, I chose all the bullsh&it”.. And to think that I feed people the same bullsh&t… Its your choice, I get shivers in my spine thinking of this….

I did not have expectations of Inquest but looking at it in the broader aspect now question everything that was said… How do you take a group of 16 people @ different emotional levels and stick them together and apply the same technique. Some people handle abuse better than others but those that can’t, the repercussions are great… We did not have the “strong” group dynamics and some individuals did experience emotional breakdowns during the seminar.

Whilst I appreciate that the concepts taught on Quest are simple concepts and actually good concepts, some used in leadership courses, the methods that they use and apply are the issue.

I am still reading and understanding LGAT's and I feel that people need to be aware of what they are getting themselves into... Using techniques that were used in war to brainwash people when you are supposedly helping them is ridiculous..

I also can’t believe that over a decade of “Teachings” or maybe brainwashing bullsh&t there is so little people that have had issues with the program.

Thank-you for this forum, I will be posting again once I understand everything.