*sigh*

This page has a summary of quotes and references to the "I AM" sayings of Jesus in the fourth gospel, related to god the "I AM"

[www.bibletexts.com]

*bigger sigh*

And then there is the Church Universal and Triumphant, ascended masters revealed by saint germain and the I AM presence:

[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.tsl.org]

*even bigger sigh*

Some more saint germaine followers... the "Great White Brotherhood" of ascended masters (including jesus apparently) "I AM religious activity" - leaders convicted of fraud

[www.tiny.cc]

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Though the spiritual hierarchy, that group of beings who constitute the spiritual cosmos and are popularly called the Great White Brotherhood, have been referred to in occult texts for generations, the contact begun with the Ascended Masters through Guy Ballard led to the releasing of what the "I AM" Religious Activity believed to be a three-fold Truth not previously known outside of the Masters secret retreat centers:

* the knowledge of the Individualized Presence of God which is known as the "Mighty I Am Presence," God in Action
* the use of the Violet Consuming Flame of Divine Love
* the Ascended Masters' use of God's Creative Name, "I AM"

*huge sigh*

And then there's the generally flakey "I AM University" of guru David Stone...

[www.iamuniversity.ch]

*Massive sigh*

Then the iamfoundation.org charity run by guru steve viglione

[www.iamfoundation.org]

Okay, they raise money for books for kids, that's nice, but then there is also Steve's amazing transformational training:

[www.shockinstitute.com]

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Enter the SHOCKphilosophy™ (Seeking Higher Omnipotent Conscious Knowledge™) -- a philosophy and methodology that creates quantum results in all areas of your life. The SHOCKphilosophy™ shocks you into a mindset from hope to how; from why to why not, from positive thinking to a proactive process.

:roll:

Sadly the iamfoundation.org is sponsored by the Dr Seuss foundation (WHAT!! He must be dead and turning in his grave!!!) and Louise Hay (whose book is used by quest trainers to pin psychological issues to physical complaints)

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I AM ... drowning in nut cases!!!!!

Ascended masters, I AM god, SCREAM therapy and Berne's transactional analysis dyads... Beam. Me. Up!!!!

Okay, leaving aside the crazy I AM business of Inquest, there is the dyad process on quest, which is based on Berne's Transactional Analysis intimacy experiment and works precisely like this:

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[b:b2e2721ca1]The Intimacy Experiment. [/b:b2e2721ca1]

In the early 1960s Eric Berne conducted a social experiment with members of his Tuesday evening seminar. This so-called Intimacy Experiment was designed to find out what would happen between two people when all other modes of social interaction (games, pastimes, rituals) were forbidden. This is how he describes the experiment in an article written for his Transactional Analysis Bulletin.

The two subjects sit facing one another with their faces less than twenty inches apart, taking twenty inches as the near point for visual acuity, and stare into one another's eyes for up to twenty minutes. After about fifteen minutes if the experiment is properly performed some of the subjects would begin to experience phenomena similar to those induced in susceptible people by prolonged sensory isolation or by LSD 25 or similar drugs. He was convinced that these effects were the production of archaic phenomena. He concluded that the conditions of the experiment tended to diminish Parent influence and Adult data processing thus partly exposing the unadapted expressive Child buried since nursing days. The purpose of sitting within the near point of vision is that this is the way an infant sees his mother. Hence people find them selves in a situation such as they have not experienced since early infancy.
In a lecture at San Jose State 1965 Berne warned against using the experiment indiscriminately since the long term effects were not known; the experiment should be restricted to married couples only!

Only difference on quest is it doesn't last 15 minutes, it lasts from 1 minute to two hours, depending on how long it takes to get the right answer to a set of questions.

[www.skepticreport.com]

Sane again wrote

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Do you have any other references to studies oof these anger releasing techniques? I've searched all over but mostly get promotional stuff :roll:

nope, SA, I don't, that was just something I remember reading awhile ago...in the course of my studies years back.

'shad'

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Do you have any other references to studies oof these anger releasing techniques? I've searched all over but mostly get promotional stuff :roll:

Sane, I have some, somewhere in my file cabinet. And I actually have the pillows and padded mallets somewhere in storage.

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Sane, I have some, somewhere in my file cabinet. And I actually have the pillows and padded mallets somewhere in storage.

:lol:

Thanks Vic-luc, by the way, I've been looking around for a south african equivalent of the national board you mentioned, but there doesn't seem to be anything. There are regulations governing licensed therapists - not useful, since quest are not licensed - and laws governing false claims of being a therapist - noT useful since quest claim to do "philosophical adventures" not therapy :evil: Great big loophole in the law, as far as I can see.

Your comments about quackery reminded me of Quackwatch, so I went hunting around there for anger therapy articles, the closest thig I could find was this reference (also in an article on Attachment Therapy - boy, do I pity those RAD kids who had to live through this):

[www.quackwatch.org]

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Attachment therapy has four core characteristics that clash with generally accepted principles of psychological practice.

1. The belief that the child must express rage that is within himself in order to improve. AT holds that the negative emotions of a child must be "released" in order for a child to function "normally." Gail Trenberth, founder of a national support group says, "They [children with RAD] won't learn to love until they can release that anger and helplessness and hopelessness that came from their early experiences." (Crowder, 2000) [b:bb9f9b9cde]Interestingly, these same practitioners do not caution their patients against excessive happiness in fear that they may "run out" of joy. [/b:bb9f9b9cde](Mercer, 2003)

I like the bit at the end... :)

Just some notes on the different types of anti-cult or counter-cult information, organisation and websites out there, for anyone doing research or looking for info.


From "Secular and Religious Critiques of Cults: Complementary Visions, Not Irresolvable Conflicts"

- Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

[www.icsahome.com]

I've highlighted four types of cult critiques proposed by Introvigne:

Quote:
Introvigne proposes that religious and secular critiques of cults fall into a four‑category classification system. Secular critics (or what he calls “anti‑cult” approaches) are either “rationalist” and concerned with the fraudulent claims of cultic groups, or “post-rationalist,” which Introvigne defines as relying “almost exclusively on brainwashing as a preferred explanation for the success of ‘cults’“ (p. 15). Religious critics (what Introvigne calls “counter‑cult” approaches) may also be divided into rationalist and post‑rationalist subgroups. Representative of rationalist religious critiques are groups such as the Dialog Center and the Christian Research Institute, both of which focus on theological critiques of cultic groups. Post‑rationalist counter-cultists “invest ‘cult’ leaders with almost superhuman powers and abilities ... [and they are said to be] in contact with Satan or the occult.” Building upon Introvigne’s use of Sai Baba as an example, one could say that rationalist anti-cultists would try to expose the fraudulent nature of his miracles, post‑rationalist anti‑cultists would focus on how Sai Baba’s manipulations may be used to control and exploit followers, rationalist counter-cultists would offer an orthodox Christian critique of Sai Baba’s theology, while post‑rationalist counter-cultists would accept Sai Baba’s “miracles,” but attribute them to his demonic powers.


Summary of types:

1. Secular rationalist - criticize fraudulent claims of cults
2. Secular post-rationalist - criticize thought reform and brainwashing techniques used for destructive purposes.
3. Religious rationalist - criticize theology / doctrine of group
4. Religious post-rationalist - believe cults are powered or driven by Satan / occult force.



I don't think the rationalist labels say much, it might be easier to summarize the criticisms as "The problem with the group is..."

1. Fraudulent claims
2. Brainwashing - coercive persuasion / thought reform
3. Wrong doctrine
4. The Devil's work

This site is based on criteria 1 and 2. Criteria 3 and 4 are not generally discussed becasue that can tend towards preaching, which is not allowed on this site. They also fall outside this sites definition of a cult / harmful group.

I am not religious so not very interested in 3 and 4 (except from intellectual perspective) but I think those aspects must surely be important to religious people, particularly with something like Quest where covert religious ideas and practices are foisted on people and may be contrary to their religions.

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SaneAgain
Just some notes on the different types of anti-cult or counter-cult information, organisation and websites out there, for anyone doing research or looking for info.


From "Secular and Religious Critiques of Cults: Complementary Visions, Not Irresolvable Conflicts"

- Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.

[www.icsahome.com]

I've highlighted four types of cult critiques proposed by Introvigne:

Quote:
Introvigne proposes that religious and secular critiques of cults fall into a four‑category classification system. Secular critics (or what he calls “anti‑cult” approaches) are either “rationalist” and concerned with the fraudulent claims of cultic groups, or “post-rationalist,” which Introvigne defines as relying “almost exclusively on brainwashing as a preferred explanation for the success of ‘cults’“ (p. 15). Religious critics (what Introvigne calls “counter‑cult” approaches) may also be divided into rationalist and post‑rationalist subgroups. Representative of rationalist religious critiques are groups such as the Dialog Center and the Christian Research Institute, both of which focus on theological critiques of cultic groups. Post‑rationalist counter-cultists “invest ‘cult’ leaders with almost superhuman powers and abilities ... [and they are said to be] in contact with Satan or the occult.” Building upon Introvigne’s use of Sai Baba as an example, one could say that rationalist anti-cultists would try to expose the fraudulent nature of his miracles, post‑rationalist anti‑cultists would focus on how Sai Baba’s manipulations may be used to control and exploit followers, rationalist counter-cultists would offer an orthodox Christian critique of Sai Baba’s theology, while post‑rationalist counter-cultists would accept Sai Baba’s “miracles,” but attribute them to his demonic powers.


Summary of types:

1. Secular rationalist - criticize fraudulent claims of cults
2. Secular post-rationalist - criticize thought reform and brainwashing techniques used for destructive purposes.
3. Religious rationalist - criticize theology / doctrine of group
4. Religious post-rationalist - believe cults are powered or driven by Satan / occult force.



I don't think the rationalist labels say much, it might be easier to summarize the criticisms as "The problem with the group is..."

1. Fraudulent claims
2. Brainwashing - coercive persuasion / thought reform
3. Wrong doctrine
4. The Devil's work

This site is based on criteria 1 and 2. Criteria 3 and 4 are not generally discussed becasue that can tend towards preaching, which is not allowed on this site. They also fall outside this sites definition of a cult / harmful group.

I am not religious so not very interested in 3 and 4 (except from intellectual perspective) but I think those aspects must surely be important to religious people, particularly with something like Quest where covert religious ideas and practices are foisted on people and may be contrary to their religions.

Thanks SaneAgain,
this is most helpful,

regards,
'shad'

The London Cult Information Centre splits cults into two types: religious cults and therapy cults.

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[b:137b6c631f]Religious Cults [/b:137b6c631f]

* Communal living common.
* Members may leave or not join society's workforce.
* Average age at the point of recruitment is in the 20's.
* Registered as religious groups.
* Appear to offer association with a group interested in making the world a better place via political, spiritual or other means.

[b:137b6c631f]Therapy Cults [/b:137b6c631f]

* Communal Living rare.
* Members usually stay in society's workforce.
* Average age at the point of recruitment is in the mid 30's
* Registered as 'non profit making' groups.
* Appear to offer association with a group giving courses in some kind of self improvement or self help technique or therapy.

[www.cultinformation.org.uk]

Quest is obviously a therapy cult, except that it is for-profit not non-profit, and it also has the religious criteria:

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Appear to offer association with a group interested in making the world a better place via political, spiritual or other means.

(Go out and make a difference, make a world that works for everyone, blah blah and while you're at it recruit more people to make more money for us.)

The average age of recruitment for Quest is early thirties. They call it "The Jesus Year" because Jesus is said to have died at age 32 (I think, someone correct me I'm wrong).

The same site has a good list of elements of mind control:

[www.cultinformation.org.uk]

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[b:203c18a2d9]Mind Control techniques include:[/b:203c18a2d9]

[b:203c18a2d9]Hypnosis [/b:203c18a2d9]

Inducing a state of high suggestibility by hypnosis, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation.

Quest - Guided visualizations and meditation to open your skull to the sky and root your feet to the ground while you relax your body done several times on Quest. Closed-eye guided visualization through junkyard of broken agreements. Dyad processes are a form of hypnosis because of the prolonged eye-contact at close range.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Peer Group Pressure [/b:203c18a2d9]

Suppressing doubt and resistance to new ideas by exploiting the need to belong.

Not very subtle. You're an intellectual asshole if you disagree and hugs and applause (or at least permission to sit down and be left in peace) if you do agree.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Love Bombing [/b:203c18a2d9]

Creating a sense of family and belonging through hugging, kissing, touching and flattery.

Hugging, hugging and more hugging. Dancing, applause, cradling process, contracts process, stretch process, stroking forehead with cloth after anger process etc etc.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Rejection of Old Values [/b:203c18a2d9]

Accelerating acceptance of new life style by constantly denouncing former values and beliefs.

On inquest you're given a "bad name-tag" and a stream of abuse along with it, later you get a contract for your new self. Thereafter any criticism or unapproved behaviour is met with warnings and criticism for being your bad name-tag instead of your wonderful new contract self.

[[quote]b]Confusing Doctrine [/b]

Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine.[/quote]

First night of Quest on a friday night when most people have already worked a full day: an 8 hour long lecture lasting till after midnight about how nothing is reality and reality is nothing and quantum mechanics tied to programmed brains and a dog called spot. For the rest of the training and on Inquest no further explanations are given; they just say "You got the data on Quest" and if you 'pretend' you don't understand you're just resisting and pretending not to know because you're an ego-driven asshole.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Metacommunication [/b:203c18a2d9]

Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.

See above. Insert keywords integrity, keep your agreements, commitment, take a risk, powerful people keep their agreements, repeat, repeat, repeat ... culminating in: "now take a risk and make a commitment to bring someone to the guest event".

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[b:203c18a2d9]Removal of Privacy [/b:203c18a2d9]

Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation.

Quest: long hours, short breaks, no wandering off during breaks.
Inquest: locked in hall all day, committed to stay with group all night, sharing rooms unless you end up in a 16 room mansion.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Time Sense Deprivation [/b:203c18a2d9]

Destroying ability to evaluate information, personal reactions, and body functions in relation to passage of time by removing all clocks and watches.

Watches and cellphones handed in to assistants. Also room darkened, no light allowed in, so can't tell time from sky.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Disinhibition[/b:203c18a2d9]
Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behaviour.

The chair game. Thus spake Zarathustra, star wars music, raise your arms in the sky and don't worry about looking good..Now Dance.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Uncompromising Rules [/b:203c18a2d9]

Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications.

:roll:

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[b:203c18a2d9]Verbal Abuse [/b:203c18a2d9]
Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language.

Every second word is "fuck". If anyone objects they're being an asshole because its only a word and they're being controlled by reacting to their programming and letting people push their buttones instead of creating their own reality. The same goes for personal insults like fat slut and impotent wanker.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue [/b:203c18a2d9]Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep.

Friday night quest finishes after midnight with homework to do before 9am the next day. On inquest with 16 hyperactive emotionally charged people in a house, sleep is impossible.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Dress Codes [/b:203c18a2d9]
Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code.

Assisting on Quest and Inquest - dress neutrally according to strict rules. Rules apply to every hair being in place, polished shoes, no stripes or logos, clean-shaven etc etc.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Chanting and Singing [/b:203c18a2d9]
Eliminanting non-cult ideas through group repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases.

No chanting or singing on Quest, but a LOT of mindless phrases and a huge amount of loud mushy music.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Confession [/b:203c18a2d9]
Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt.

Ranging from mild "sharing" on Quest to confession of deepest secrets on Inquest.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Financial Commitment [/b:203c18a2d9]

Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets.

Quest fails this test; no donation of assets required, just shell out for more and more courses and if you don't have money you're accused of having a "poverty mentality".

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[b:203c18a2d9]Finger Pointing [/b:203c18a2d9]

Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world and other cults.

According to Wendy, its a jungle out there. Not that I disagree.... I just disagree on where the snakes are. Criticism of other LGATs like Joyspring and Baruch. Criticism of religion and politics. And according to Buster, books are a waste of time because they're not EXPERIENCE.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Flaunting Hierarchy [/b:203c18a2d9]

Promoting acceptance of cult authority by promising advancement, power and salvation.

Very subtle around Quest, unless you count the assisting structure where you progress from assistant to area supervisor to supervisor to assistant trainer ... as an assistant your job may be to clean toilets, whereas if you are the kitchen supervisor you job is to tell someone else to clean the toilets, so this advancement is not to be taken lightly.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Isolation [/b:203c18a2d9]

Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.

If you are in a relationship your partner MUST DO inquest with you. If they refuse they are not committed and the relationship is worthless. If you mention a problem in a relationship the solution will be "do a clearing" and if that doesn't work "cut contact" for a period of time. "Cut contact" is a common solution to relationship problems. Lots of pressure to assist regularly and meet with your inquest group regularly - doesn't leave much time for other things.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Controlled Approval [/b:203c18a2d9]
Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.

One of Wendy's favourite lines is "Make yourself vulnerable". Similar actions are rewarded and punished differently in different people and on different days, because of the trainers interpretation of "the energy" associated with the behaviour, rather than the behaviour itself.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Change of Diet [/b:203c18a2d9]
Creating disorientation and increased susceptibility to emotional arousal by depriving the nervous system of necessary nutrients through the use of special diets and/or fasting.

Not used on Quest as far as I know.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Games [/b:203c18a2d9]

Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules.

All the ground rules are clear but they are only given after you have paid your money and made a commitment.

All the processes are games with obscure rules. For example, in the giver-taker game the instructions are "You are now in the highest state of integrity you've even been in in your life, don't fuck it up. Look at each person in the group and state whether they are a giver or a taker, then whether you are are a giver or a taker". Presumably the rules are "Be honest" but any statement of difference (not all giver or not all taker) results in hail of abuse and shaming.

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[b:203c18a2d9]No Questions [/b:203c18a2d9]
Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.

You may ask any question but you will be humiliated and called an asshole if the question is wrong.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Guilt [/b:203c18a2d9]
Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles.

Bad name-tag once again. Stirring up any and all old issues in confession and sharing sessions. Relentless emphasis on clearing, clearing, clearing former lifestyles as old as ten minutes ago or ten lifetimes ago.

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[b:203c18a2d9]
Fear [/b:203c18a2d9]

Maintaining loyalty and obedience to the group by threatening soul, life or limb for the slightest 'negative' thought, word or deed.

If you don't follow requirements, clear, assist, keep contact with your group and so on, you will be f*cking up your life and other people's lives and spreading the negative energy which leads to war, famine and three-fold punishment for the universe. THE UNIVERSE WILL GET YOU.

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[b:203c18a2d9]Replacement of Relationships [/b:203c18a2d9]
Destroying pre-cult families by arranging cult marriages and 'families'.

Quest doesn't bother with this one because their business and evangelism is based on high turnover of fresh meat for exponential growth.

Some new research on out-of-body experiences:

[news.bbc.co.uk]

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[b:b04b1eb50b]Out-of-body experience recreated [/b:b04b1eb50b]

Near-death events have triggered out-of-body experiences
Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers.
The experiments, described in the Science journal, offer a scientific explanation for a phenomenon experienced by one in 10 people.

Two teams used virtual reality goggles to con the brain into thinking the body was located elsewhere.

The visual illusion plus the feel of their real bodies being touched made volunteers sense that they had moved outside of their physical bodies...

Considering that Quest and presumably other lgats who do similar exercises manage to create out-of-body experiences in 95% of trainees during the "nothing" dyad on Quest, I wish some scientists would do some research on the OBEs created in lgats.

The OBEs created by the "nothing" dyad are probably one of the biggest factors in 95% of trainees reporting that Quest was an "awesome" experience. As I've said elsewhere, religious people tended to view this as some kind of meeting with a god or spirit world, non-believers like myself tended to take it as some kind of 'proof' of 'something beyond my understanding' and therefore beyond the realm of critical thinking - not knowing at the time how unreliable a person's own perceptions and experiences can be.

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Dr Susan Blackmore, psychologist and visiting lecturer at the University of the West of England, said: "This has at last brought OBEs into the lab and tested one of the main theories of how they occur.

"Scientists have long suspected that the clue to these [b:b04b1eb50b]extraordinary, and sometimes life-changing, experiences [/b:b04b1eb50b]lies in disrupting our normal illusion of being a self behind our eyes, and replacing it with a new viewpoint from above or behind."

Interesting how the lgats always sell "extraordinary and life-changing experiences"...

.