Shadow, thanks for this, it is very interesting:

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"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?

This is useful and interesting, and I appreciate you posting this. Its also just general boundaries, I think. If there's anything on earth that violates a person's boundaries, its an lgat. But you probably know more about that than I do, I hate throwing around psychological terms that I don't really understand :roll: but I don't know how else to say what I mean :)

Just a side-note - ajinajan - thanks, I've the got the Margaret Singer book (sadly without the Landmark details, but with more comments on what lengths lgats go to cover up their evils) and one of the warning she gives about recovery, is that therapy can be not helpful or counter-productive, if the therapist doesn't understand cults and rather than focussing on the damage caused by the cult, takes the person down the garden path into childhood issues, which may or may not be relevant. Worth bearing in mind if anyone is busy finding a therapist, make sure they know what they're doing, and if they don't, as exImpact says, educate them! :lol:

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question lady

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"Rswinters1
SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters

RS, It's not a competition. There are no deadlines on stages of recovery, and nor on anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, perhaps for a very long time, if not forever. It's not for you to decide what is best for someone else.

You know that I am a person of faith in God RS, and I agree that to conclude with a "God Bless" for someone who has stated their lack of interest in your religion is rather rude. It almost sounds like you are trying to zing Sane while trying to appear above it.

I care about you. The people on this board care about you. But sometimes caring means pointing out some things that may be alienating your allies.

I have tried to be gentle in saying this. I hope I have. Everyone here has been hurt in some way by an LGAT. Let's keep the focus on helping each other.

The projected anger is definitely alienating me. That is for sure. Anger is proper when it is kept in check. Not as it is unchecked lately...

I am sorry to disagree with some of you here... Anger within reason and purpose is very needed...

Beyond that is destructive.

The anger that goes unchecked on this website is extremely destructive.

I am done with my words, and intentions being so twisted by this unchecked anger.

It is time to look in the mirror folks. Don't demand what your not willing to follow in guidelines.

I am not angry here. I am just done with temper tantrums...

This is where I am at on this matter. I will be remaining on this forum, but will not be engaging the anger.

I am sure there will be loud posts that will rip what I have said apart...

But rest assured. I am done with the unchecked anger on this forum.

I will not leave in anger as I did previously. Because I am not angry here.

I am done with others anger being projected upon me though.

Have a good day you all.

separating the quotes messed up. Here is what I posted.

The projected anger is definitely alienating me. That is for sure. Anger is proper when it is kept in check. Not as it is unchecked lately...

I am sorry to disagree with some of you here... Anger within reason and purpose is very needed...

Beyond that is destructive.

The anger that goes unchecked on this website is extremely destructive.

I am done with my words, and intentions being so twisted by this unchecked anger.

It is time to look in the mirror folks. Don't demand what your not willing to follow in guidelines.

I am not angry here. I am just done with temper tantrums...

This is where I am at on this matter. I will be remaining on this forum, but will not be engaging the anger.

I am sure there will be loud posts that will rip what I have said apart...

But rest assured. I am done with the unchecked anger on this forum.

I will not leave in anger as I did previously. Because I am not angry here.

I am done with others anger being projected upon me though.

Have a good day you all.

Rsw,

I have decided against criticizing your posts on multiple occasions because you have a tendency to overreact to criticism but with your recent trip into dementia justifies a response.

Many of your posts on this site seem geared toward your favorite topic of LGAT unification but quite frankly after several months of listening to you tout that issue over and over on every LGAT thread I, like others on here, think its time to move on.

Furthermore, your religious justifications for criticizing others make you sound more like a bigot than an individual who has moved beyond the initial LGAT anger. If you are truly interested in pursuing the anger topic or LGAT unification then please start a new thread.

An interesting quote I found:

“You cut them off from their support systems. You cut them off from church, friends, community, family. You isolate someone where they rely on the abuser for all the things, and so they become extremely dependent on that person, and then there is a natural tendency to try to please the power figure and if somebody sets themselves up as the power figure, you start aligning your thinking with that person. It's called defensive identification. You start thinking like them, talking like them, agreeing with them, because they can make it very scary for you if you don't."

Does this sound familiar?

In truth, this quote comes directly from a television show about abuse, not about LGATs, but one can see can that it applies exactly to the manner in which LGATs work.

The source? Doctor Phil!

Cutting a person off from their support, says Doctor Phil, is the [i:43cdb4caea]first rule of abuse.[/i:43cdb4caea] As a [i:43cdb4caea]qualified professional[/i:43cdb4caea] he knows and understands this.

This type of abuse is to be found in Quest and many similar LGATs.

I have copied the bulk of the off-topic parts of the conversation to a the genesis thread, where recovery and religion are on-topic, for anyone who would like to continue the off-topic aspects of this discussion.

[board.culteducation.com]

Please stay on topic and focused.

Rswinters1 has been banned.

exImpact wrote:

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This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called The Little Soul and the Sun.

SaneAgain wrote:

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Thank you, ex. Same story at Quest South Africa, although - [b:8c0b31e1c1]like all their other 'teachings' - not really explicitly explained, but implied through cryptic comments delivered in the middle of a highly controlled gestalty type atmosphere [/b:8c0b31e1c1]where the trainees are outnumbered by assistants, who act as if they represent the universe and respond in a way that is supposed to teach the lesson. It becomes more explicitly stated as you do more courses and assist more.

In the basic course it is presented only as "you chose your parents" and with the comment "you don't have to believe it, but if you choose to think that way you are more empowered, so you might as well... it doesn't have to be true" - but later on they make it into an Absolute Truth, Law of the Universe type thing.

I want to explain how these theories are "implied" throughout the training, rather than taught.

The theories that quest base their "work" on are given during the weekend basic course (quest) mostly on the first day. The rest of the basic course consists of games to demonstrate the concepts, with discussion in between. Quest is said to about "how the world works and how you interact with it". On this course the emphasis is not on being at cause, but about "going into effect" - mostly how others go into effect and it is "nothing to do with you". This creates the arrogant effect, as after quest most people go around saying and doing what the hell they want, ignoring other people's feelings as "nothing to do with me" and responding with "that's your shit" if anyone objects.

The "advanced" course, Inquest, is said to be "about you" and is about being "at cause". There is no "data" on this course; no lectures, no discussion; everything is demonstrated through "experience". If anyone tries to ask a question, or for something to be explained, they are told "You did quest. The data was given. Why are you pretending not to know?". There was a big sign up in the hall throughout Inquest, that said "what are you pretending not to know" and that was hammered throughout the course. A lot of things were not actually explained in the quest data sessions, they continuing implication was always that we already know everything (through our higher self, which is kind of psychic) so we must pretend not to know.

From the second trainees walk through the door, they are told that they chose every single detail of what happens in the training hall, and every single detail is a mirror of their outside life, and every single detail of what they do is carried out as 'energy' into the outside world, in real time, to create what happens 'out there'.

So, first thing, everyone is given a name tag and a number with 'you chose that number'. Everyone is told to sit down in a circle, but not next to anyone they know. Then the trainer says 'you have chosen the person on your right to be your angel, and you have chosen to be the angel of the person on your left. That person is your charge. Your sole responsibility on inquest is your charge." You chose your charge and angel (and the implication is that its a pre-mortal agreement as ex described) And so it goes, for every tiny detail.

The walls of the rest area at the back of the room are covered floor to ceiling in newspaper clippings. Throughout the course the trainers remind people that everything they do is being carried out as energy into the world. The newspaper clippings are there as proof of that, designed to have the same themes as what goes in on the room.

The training takes place over five days. During the day everyone is locked into the hall, no going outside, not even for breaks. The doors are locked and chained from the outside. At the end of each day trainees are instructed to go to one person's house, sharing cars with house and designated drivers chosen by the group (uh... voted for this time, not chosen by magic). All money is handed over to a designated group member. On leaving the hall the rules are: no phone calls, no radio, no tv, no going anywhere other than to a shop for food, no speaking to anyone in shops other than for the purposes of buying food. Homework must be done every night.

There are about 20 ground rules. One of them is to follow every instruction from an assistant or from a trainer, so that adds to the list. I couldn't remember half of them. Breaking a ground rule is out of integrity and worse than the 7 deadly sins or breaking the ten commandments. If someone breaks a ground rule, the person is not called on for it. Their angel is called on. Being called on for you charge breaking a ground rule is not a gentle interview. Example: someone doesn't do homework. The trainer turns on that person's angel:

[b:8c0b31e1c1]"WHY HASN'T HE DONE HIS HOMEWORK?? WAKE UP, YOU ARE FUCKING UP PEOPLE'S LIVES!!!!! WHY ARE YOU NOT SUPPORTING YOUR CHARGE??? CAN'T YOU SEE HE'S KILLING HIMSELF??? WE'RE NOT FUCKING AROUND HERE!!! PEOPLE ARE DYING OUT THERE!!!"[/b:8c0b31e1c1][/size:8c0b31e1c1][/color:8c0b31e1c1]

(Bold and red to indicate tone and volume of trainer's voice)

This is an effective means of controlling people. I followed every rule for fear of getting my angel into trouble. It also stopped me from 'running away' at night time, because there'd have been hell to pay not only for my angel, but the whole group (also because I had no money and I was stuck in a stranger's house in the middle of nowhere, with no phone).

But more than that, this is what slowly but surely drives a person crazy.

On the first day driving home from the hall some people cracked jokes like "oh look, there's a fire, we created that, HA HA". By the third day there were no jokes. One day we drove past a car crash scene and everyone started screaming at everyone else to fucking get into integrity and stop their shit because look at what we'd done.

So that's the general scene and tone of Inquest. All the processes, which are extreme in themselves, take part in this context and environment.

So being "at cause" is not just a bad idea. Its a whole false reality that they create. If you look at the Stanford prison experiment, within about two days the 'prisoners' began to think and act as if they were 'real' prisoners. They believed what their environment told them. The same thing happens on inquest; when there is no normal reality to refer to, and you are made to be at cause, creator of everything from the number on your name-tag to your charge's behaviour to corruption in government, to pedophilia reported in the newspaper, to murder, to rape, to natural disasters - it becomes 'real' rather than just a crappy idea to think about.

Anyway... I wanted to get to what billy-g was saying about the physical attacks in some processes, but I thought it was necessary to put it in context first...

A side note on this, to do with why some people are more damaged than others by the training: yes there may be some pre-dispositional factors, but another huge factor is the randomness of the training, the fact that even though the process is so scripted and controlled, different people get into different roles, and get RANDOMLY thrown together with other group members, creating a totally chaotic factor.

Two examples:

1. Driving. The people with the biggest cars were voted to be drivers. People who were allowed to drive their cars and training therefore had more control and were less likely to fall into a 'learned helplessness' and dependent powerless position. They had a far more realistic choice of being able to leave if they wanted to, and its just empowering to be able to drive yourself around in your own familiar possession. Same principle with the food money and the house chosen to stay in.

2. Other group members. Imagine the difference between made angel to a regular ordinary person, and being made angel to a person who has severe problems - maybe hiv or cancer, severe abuse in their life, or a history of being an abuser. These things create vastly different 'experiences' of the training.

The point I have been trying to make about LGATs is reflected in SaneAgain's descriptions above. That is that [b:fa283622f9]FEAR[/b:fa283622f9] [/color:fa283622f9] is instilled in course-goers.

To quote: "I followed every rule for [b:fa283622f9]fear [/b:fa283622f9] of getting my angel into trouble."[/b]

There are so many more fears instilled during courses, including:

- Not getting it and making whatever great step is claimed.
- Not getting it and thus facing a personal and vicious attack
- Believing family and friends are trying to manipulate and prevent course-goers from reaching their true potential
- Being "at cause" for everything bad going on

etc, etc, etc...

People become concerned about taking a "wrong" step. Fear rules.

And notice what visible effects these "self-empowering" courses produce while they are on the go: People cracking up, crying, declaring their lives a mess.

Where are the smiling, happy faces of the empowered? Where is the laughter?

Another quote from SaneAgain: "On the first day driving home from the hall some people cracked jokes like "oh look, there's a fire, we created that, HA HA". By the third day there were no jokes. One day we drove past a car crash scene and everyone started screaming at everyone else to fucking get into integrity and stop their shit because look at what we'd done."

Seen in the cold light of day, it seems ridiculous that people could believe this, but this is a good reflection of the insidious power of the mind control going on in these courses.

I attended a course in Zanzibar - my first and last one - and the course leader, on about the fourth day (with the victims by this time exhausted) had the attendees gather on a beach at midnight and try to see or hear dragons!

He had been selling the idea that dragons were about throughout the course. People bought it and were seeing evidence of dragons everywhere.

Incredibly, that night on the beach, out of a group of 35 people, only three did not see or hear the dragons! Thankfully, I was one of them.

(Sarcastic) Isn't it strange that no other reports have been documented of people having witnessed dragons like this?

My point, though, is that the methods these people use are very strong and extremely dangerous.

They can cause people to accept ludicrous ideas and the ability of these methods to force people to act out of character in hurtful ways, because fear, is scary. That is why so many healthy lines are crossed: fear.

There is so much that could be expanded upon on this subject, but I'm going to leave it there. Hopefully what I have said might make some sense to some. Hopefully, within this idea, lies some understanding for them.