What drew me to Klemmer was the false hope of relational bliss that could be created in my life as I applied Klemmers philosophy in my life.

Well, it was just that "False Hope".

The reality is there are people that are abusive, and it is not a matter of changing the meaning I am placing on behavior.

Abuse is abuse and is abuse no matter how you slice it. The only answer to abuse relationally is to remove yourself from the person who is abusive.

I never learned this aspect within my life and how to safeguard myself agianst abusive peole. (Which this aspect is learned in the dynamics of being parented).

Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is extremely destructive to someone with my past abuse and trauma in my life. It intensifies my attachment to abusive people.

Thus it is why I let Klemmer influence me to remarry an abuser that I divorced the first time from seeing the abuse.

Klemmer made me believe I was wrong in divorcing her the first time.

I am discovering this is absolutely absurd. Just as Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is messed up and is wrong. I was wrong in remarrying an abusive women thinking I could change the meaning on her behavior.

Plus the worst one of all was how I could change the meaning on the abuse coming from my mother.

This is not so. I am finally getting to the core of all this abuse, and trauma in my life.

Finally calling abuse what it is in my life. ABUSE. I know longer need to accept it from people.

Regardless of what LGAT's say about the meaning, or the cause of...

Rs, you're walking a very fine line here. Anyone can look at their life and find a problem that might have pushed them towards an lgat. But what you are saying is leaning quite heavily towards the idea of 'being at cause' for getting into an lgat. If others want to do that, that is okay by me. But I will not, and I don't like the tone you're taking on this, telling others not to sound like they're complaining. I got suckered, I suffered, and I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life in a public forum, just in case it MIGHT be relevant and just in case someone might think I'm complaining too much instead of "taking responsibility". F*ck that. I've had that line pushed down my throat for years, its not what I'm here for.

Rs, I'm not trying to be rude to you. But you're basically telling people here to stand up and 'share' and 'be at cause' for their experience. Its like being right back in a training room. Lgats con people, whether they were searching or not, had problems or not. If you think its relevant, fine, but why insult everyone else? Why is that every time you find something that helps YOU, anyone else who doesn't want to do it has something wrong with them? Don't want to do genesis program? Oh, you're christianity-bashing. Don't want to make it your own fault you got into an lgat? Oh, you're not being honest, you're not digging deep to find your own dirt, you're just complaining. What do you think you're doing when you talk about your mother? Is that not complaining?? What makes that any different, if you want to categorize everything as complaining?

Any person on earth can find some problem to hang the lgat on. Anyone. But the fact is, people get into lgats because they are RECRUITED and CONNED. They'll find any hook in any person, and use it. You want to analyse your hook, go ahead. But why MUST people share? Why don't you RESPECT how much people want to share, and in what areas, instead of making it out to be some kind of crime not to share everything? Is this not your programming talking? Everyone must share, everyone must take responsibility for how they created the lgat experience in their life???

Hi rswinters1,
I keep getting timed out, so I will have to respond to your comments in segments.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I will eloborate more on this after I have typed a reply in (word), and paste it here...

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

It is only past experience, and lack of money, that kept me from getting sucked into Landmark, so I don't mean to make myself seem smarter or emotionally healther than anyone else. We all have issues, and it just depends on how vulnerable we are at the time of exposure (to the LGATs) whether or not we take the bait.

take care, and keep sharing, I do believe that it will help heal the wounds, to know that you are so not alone in this. - but you already know that.

more later,
regards,
'shad'

Hi SaneAgain,

Obviously the conditioning runs deep. It seems it will take time for people who have spent a long time in the LGAT groups to go back to who they were originally. But of course, none of us ever stay the same. Life's experience change us, may unalterably. The trick is to get back to one's intinsic self, that child who came out of the proverbial 'womb'....to know that person before he/she was influenced by society around us.

I think is must be incredibly difficult, as I am sure there are 'triggers' that throw one right back to where they were when they first got free from the LGAT. It must be like riding on a roller-coaster. One minute you think one thing, next minute you start second-guessing yourself. And I think that is why Grads, and current members of Landmark/EST, Insignt, Impact et all, keep coming here and posting. They are trying to destabilize those who have excaped the clutches of those 'gangsters'.

so take care, all of us, we must all take care of each other and ourselves.

regards,
'shad'

SaneAgian...

Please don't take this issue and create a huge stink over it. I shared what I shared and it was not intended as you took it.

Please keep our posts in a place of consideraton of all views shared with a respect that you want for yours as well.

I have heard your views very aggressively shared on this forum. You are very vocal in your views as I am.

Please do not take our interactions back to a place of being stuck between us.

I will take another look at my posts. I will consider what you have shared.

Please consider that your anger at LGAT's is coloring alot of what you hear in my words.

Because I am not saying alot of what you state is being intended by by posts.

We don't need to take this back to a place of being stuck between us again.

So, please take a breath and consider that your perception of my posts may not be what is the intent behind my posts.

I have appreciated the many posts that have been shared, and I am on the same game page as you in the purpose of exposing LGAT's.

I am not looking to fight with you SaneAgian. I am looking to cooperate with you in exposing LGAT's by any, and all means available to us.

This is my intent, and is my only intent on this forum.

Quote
SaneAgain
Rs, you're walking a very fine line here. Anyone can look at their life and find a problem that might have pushed them towards an lgat. But what you are saying is leaning quite heavily towards the idea of 'being at cause' for getting into an lgat. If others want to do that, that is okay by me. But I will not, and I don't like the tone you're taking on this, telling others not to sound like they're complaining. I got suckered, I suffered, and I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life in a public forum, just in case it MIGHT be relevant and just in case someone might think I'm complaining too much instead of "taking responsibility". F*ck that. I've had that line pushed down my throat for years, its not what I'm here for.

SaneAgian... I consider you my friend. Please check your anger. I am not saying this at all.

I have tried to allow for your anger on many interactions between us. Please check it at the door, and quit flying off the handle like this....

I am not trying to do as you are stating in my posts. Stop puting words,and intentions in my mouth that are not being said.

We both have been hurt by our LGAT experience. Please allow for another to walk on a path of healing that is not the same as yours in every detail...

I am your friend, and at the same time. Ask for you to please stop the anger, and allow for others to post things as you demand to post yourself.

We do not need to fight on this matter...

I will take what you said into consideration on future posts. I will evaluate what I say, and post based on what I conclude in my evaluation.

Thank for sharing what you have shared. Now please evaluate your anger, and its intensity. Evaluate if your overreacting on this matter.

Because in my opinion. You are overreacting from your own issues with your personal LGAT experience. I believe you are projecting your anger onto me in this issue.

I do understand though, and will take note to be more carefull in how I post. But it still may be in a manner that you don't like.

I have read many of your posts that I have not liked as well. I have kept my mouth shut as I understood your anger at your LGAT experiences.

Please do so with me.

I have just took a quick look at what I posted. I do not see where I was saying what is being stated was said in my posts.

All I was doing was sharing about myself, and asking others to share accordingly.

I did not slam what has been shared by many on this forum about how messed up LGAT's are being.

I shared from my experience, and what I am discovering. I asked for others to share as well.

So, I am sorry. I will not let my posts be so ripped upon by stating an intention that is not within my posts, or in my heart.

I am after helping people recover from LGAT's as well as desiring to expose the lies of them.

I see healing from these LGAT's just as important as exposing them.

I am not telling no one to share what they don't want. I am asking however for people to share what is being discovered as what lured them into an LGAT.

Not to do harm, but to allow for healing not just for them. But for us all.

I am sharing so vulnerably as I have been with the intention of helping those damaged by LGAT's to pursue healing emotionally.

Yes being angry is part of healing. I just don't want to remain stuck in anger in my life.

I want to move onto healing emotionally. This may not be the forum for this part of the process of my recovery from Klemmer. I may have to accept this as so by finding another way to discuss things that I am learning about myself, and what led me to be lured into an LGAT in my life.

So. This may not be the place to have these types of conversations with people.

I can accept that. So, we will see what develops here.

It is my opinion Sane Again's anger is fully justified. I suggest you find a way to deal with it. I also suggest that you find a way to accept that some of what you share in these forums is not universally held and there are some views that you have that may cause anger in people. Sane Again is one of the few people on these boards that continues to contribute content of real value, in my opinion she does not need a personal moderator.

You say you allow for all perspectives and all degrees of experiences to be shared concerning LGAT's, and yet you asked her to "check her anger". Isn't this hypocritical?

Also RS, I understand you wish to draw parrallels between the practices and damage brought on by all LGAT's. That is fine, but I am noticing an excess of this, and it seems to be having the effect of "going off topic" for the individual thread in question. I mean, I agree, you are right, but the horse is dead, and he's been dead a long time. Your last four extensive posts have had nothing to do with Quest in South Africa, if you want to have a personal discussion with the author of this thread, the least you could do is have it through the PM system.

Just a suggestion.

well...suggestions :)

As mentioned previously in my one only posting to this board, I have not had a personal experience with an LGAT, other that watching the pain and suffering of a close friend who has. Consequently, while I read the board with a great deal of interest and sympathy, I do not feel I have a right to post. Usually I do not, sometimes I do. This is one of those times.

I agree with exImpact that SaneAgain’s anger is fully justified.

My friend had done nothing more than become acquainted with somebody who was heavily involved in an LGAT. Outwardly a charming person; intelligent, well spoken, sociable - the kind of person who instills a feeling of confidence. Sadly too, persistent and persuasive and zealous (in an inoffensive way of course). My friend was conned, deceived, misled and lied to over a long period of time, and slowly but surely baited into attending the LGAT. Not to fix something that was wrong, not to help resolve some urgent and pressing negative influence or experience, but to add another positive dimension to life’s experience.

By the time my friend had witnessed the charming bait strike a women on the course hard across the face and then jump on top of her when she fell to the floor, in a true show of absolute rage (to help this other woman of course), it was too late. The damage had been done. The abuse had been administered, the brainwashing had been achieved and the fear had been instilled. It’s absolutely sickening and it is absolutely undeserved. To imply that people must look deep inside themselves and identify the dots that need to be connected in order to understand what they did to deserve these negative and awful experiences is insulting in the extreme, and totally missing the point (as I see it) that these LGAT’s are highly skilled in the art of lying and deception.

Just some thoughts from an outsider looking in.