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Maxui
*sigh*

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

If you feel manipulated I apologise, it was never my intention

Have a good day my friend

Matt

you are very gifted at the use of language to your advantage.

show up conniving, point out others failings, then go back to being conniving.

This is definitely the two faced LGAT mindset that I have learned to hate in its participants.

Have a good day to you to my friend.

To whom it may concern:

Stop the personal attacks.

This thread is devoted to the LGAT "Quest."

If you have something to say specifically about that LGAT please feel free to comment.

Otherwise, start another thread.

This message board is not for preaching, debating theology or religion.

Read the rules.

Preaching is prohibited.

Hi Maxui,

Your first post did kind of give the impression you've done Quest - may I ask, which one of the lgats did you attend?

exImpact said:

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Sympathy? Bah, apathy is more like it. You basically said, "Well, It worked for me, so fu** the rest!"

I don't entirely agree with this. I agree with the "apathy" part but not with the "f*ck you" part. To me it looks more like you have a *shrug* attitude than a "f*ck you" attitude.

Look at it this way:

You recruit a friend to do Quest (or any other LGAT)
Friend does Quest
Friend has psychotic beakdown
Friend jumps out of window
Friend dies.

Your response? *Shrug* ... Quest is not for everyone...He wasn't in the right place for it yet...it worked for me... I had a great experience...I Am Love.


Do you see the problem?

You sound like a nice enough person so I'm sure if this really happened you would be horrified and devastated. Maybe you would even consider the possibility that Quest was directly responsible for what happened. But the trainers at Quest, if you spoke to them, would not in any serious way hold themselves accountable. They might ask "how did we create this situation" as part of one of their clearing sessions but they would soon reinterpret it in the framework of their beliefs, as "he chose to exit, he created his reality, he wasn't ready for quest, he must've been out of integrity" ... etc.

You did say you sympathise and I appreciate that, but your other comments kind of negate that. Its as if you feel sympathy, but there is some kind of mental block about taking your LGAT concepts and statements to their logical conclusion? As if there are two you - one who sympathises, one who shrugs? I hope you're not finding this offensive. Its just that if you read all the other posts from LGAT supporters they all say very much the same thing you're saying, with the same language, tone, terminology... its difficult to find the real person behind that - your other posts are quite unique though :D


(PS "CHOSE TO EXIT" - is the quest euphemism for murdered, committed suicide, died in an accident or died of natural causes).

Suicide and psychosis have been reported in LGAT trainees all over the world, from est, through lifespring, to PSI Seminars, to Quest. Lifespring settled approximately 30 cases out of court, and received one judgement against them in court, for damages caused by the training. Most of the damages were psychiatric damage. Quest training is almost a carbon copy of Lifespring. (Last time I looked the Lifespring info was on wikipedia)


Failing to even consider that the LGATs are flawed, rather than putting the blame on the victim for being "not ready yet" is like ignoring the elephant in the room. You say that psychosis is brought on by certain drugs - how come you don't say the person wasn't in the right place yet for the drug?


Its also a little patronising (unintended I'm sure, but that's how it comes across) to say that someone isn't "in the right place yet". What does that mean? That I wasn't mature enough? Advanced enough? experienced enough? Vibrating at a high enough frequencey?

Facing what fears, exactly? Fear of being locked in a room for five days running, witnessing physical and verbal abuse of other people, being verbally abused myself - all to the tune of John Denver and Whitney Houston? Being brainwashed to believe that all the murders, rapes and wars happening in the outside world are my fault because I said something wrong in a seminar room?[/color:170d5580b6] Being told over and over and over again that if I don't do what the trainers want me to do "the universe" will sort me out? (Amazing how they can make "the universe" sound like the mafia - guess you had to be there) - then dancing around in costume to the point of exhaustion and getting laid out on the floor, in a state of shock (after being carried around in a ceremony to represent my own funeral) while a bunch of total strangers stroke my body and the trainer "revives" me as if she is some kind of god and I am jesus being resurrected, then being forced to listen to some of the most hair-raising secrets of other people that have nothing to do with me and that I would rather not hear, being screamed at for murdering people because I am not capable of magically transforming four dolls in a lifeboat game into sixteen and at the end of all this shit I get told to go out into the world and "Make A Difference" which in real English means "recruit people into Quest" - because my own life is pathetic? DAMN F*CKING RIGHT I'M NOT READY TO FACE THAT.

Is it any surprise that someone would go home after that, turn on a radio, hear some bad news, break down into grief then go psychotic believing they'd caused it - AFTER FIVE DAYS OF BEING BRAINWASHED TO BELIEVE EXACTLY THAT???? DO. YOU. SEE. THE. PROBLEM?? [/color:170d5580b6]
Excuse me shouting, but its not a calm subject. And I'm not shouting at you, I'm shouting at the source of the LGAT logic that you're using.

However... deep breath...my main complaint about Quest is not so much that I had a bad experience. I've recovered from it and I only wasted a few years of my life walking around with PTSD, not too bad a train smash. It could've been worse.


[b:170d5580b6]My main complaint is that I was deliberately decieved, manipulted, used and brainwashed. The rest I can forgive, but the deliberate and covert attempt to destroy my natural personality, character, values and beliefs ? [/b:170d5580b6]

[b:170d5580b6]@#$%##@$#@%$ !!!! [/b:170d5580b6][/size:170d5580b6][/color:170d5580b6]

Anyway... Maxui, how did your life change due to your course? Did you get a new relationship? New Job?

I have agreed to disagree with Ricks stance on Faith vs. Science as he stated one is based on facts while the other is based on belief. I strongly disagree and will not remain on a forum so biased as this.

Since this is an impasse that will not be resolved. I have informed Rick that I will remove myself from this forum. There will be no need to be banned by him.

I have gained much from this forum as I have been recovering from my LGAT experience.

I will refer people to this site for information on LGAT’s while informing them of the biased stance on faith issues.

It has been a pleasure knowing you all. Have a nice life and may God richly bless each and everyone of you.

Good bye
Rswinters

*sigh*, a rose by any other name, eh? or Landmark/Est, quest, Insight... doggy poo poo by any other name still stinks...

Hi SaneAgain,

I understand that you are feeling very angry at been used so badly....I think my friend might be feeling that also, but not really understanding, that is why she lashed out at her boyfriend on night, and the very next night she lashed out at me. I phoned to speak to him and got his mother, we had a nice long chat. We are all very worried about her and have a strategy in place. I had lunch with her and told her that I hoped she was not signing up for the Vancouver because if I have anything to do or say about it Landmark/EST will have to close down its office here and leave town before the end of the year. I think that has given her something to think about, an besides which, she does not have any money left, she asked to borrow some from her boyfriend but I doubt he will give it to her.

...but I digress...

I think it is natural for you to feel angry...I was feeling that yesterday, I was feeling so impotent to do anything but wait for the inevitable crash.

I think it it is pointless to get into a word slinging match with people who only want to defend their position. I said what I think, and if you don't like it, oh well...

It should be clear to even a person with a Grade 10 education this this forum is strongly in support of people who are recovering from their scathing experiences with Cults, and "cultish" self-improvement scams, yes SCAMS. Let's not mince words as we all know what the purpose of this forum is.

So I suggest that people who don't like what they read, well, it is no different from t.v. If you don't like what programs are offered on t.v., switch it off and read a book, or go for a run...

so, to the people who don't like the opinions expressed here, or if the "stories" don't match with your altered paradigm, ....OH WELL... turn off you computer, go for a run, and get those endorphins popping and leave us to our venting, because that is what we need to do.

I feel so much better since I have been reading and sharing here, and I am grateful that people are brave enough to be honest.

Thanks again.

typo error;

".....I hope she is not signing up for the next SLEP course in Vancouver...."


[silly me]

Hi SaneAgain

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I don't entirely agree with this. I agree with the "apathy" part but not with the "f*ck you" part. To me it looks more like you have a *shrug* attitude than a "f*ck you" attitude.

Look at it this way:

You recruit a friend to do Quest (or any other LGAT)
Friend does Quest
Friend has psychotic beakdown
Friend jumps out of window
Friend dies.

Your response? *Shrug* ... Quest is not for everyone...He wasn't in the right place for it yet...it worked for me... I had a great experience...I Am Love.

After reading my original post in the light of the above comments I can see the point you are trying to make.

However my response would not be "*shrug* It worked for me."

That is a massively selfish response and not in line at all with what I got out of the workshops I attended.

For me we are all one (and for rsWinters this is scientifically provable)
and any deliberate loss of life is unacceptable.

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SaneAgain

You did say you sympathise and I appreciate that, but your other comments kind of negate that. Its as if you feel sympathy, but there is some kind of mental block about taking your LGAT concepts and statements to their logical conclusion?

Hmm that is interesting - Please elaborate on what the logical conclusion would be?

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As if there are two you - one who sympathises, one who shrugs? I hope you're not finding this offensive.

Not at all - I take it as a learning - introspection is a very important tool for me and being able to see how others perceive me allows me to evaluate and "correct" things that I find offensive within myself.

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Its just that if you read all the other posts from LGAT supporters they all say very much the same thing you're saying, with the same language, tone, terminology... its difficult to find the real person behind that - your other posts are quite unique though :D

Thank you for the compliment :)

The terminology I use is a bit LGATish I know however I have no other way to express concepts like "just Being" which is immensely powerful for me in terms of accepting who I am flaws and all.

also my religious (read spiritual) views also use these terms.
If they offend you I truly am sorry.

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Failing to even consider that the LGATs are flawed, rather than putting the blame on the victim for being "not ready yet" is like ignoring the elephant in the room.

Oh i agree with you LGATS are flawed and the people on this forum are undeniable proof of that.

My point is they are also beneficial to some and I stand to be corrected but the number of people who actually make a better life after attending LGATS far outweigh those who have a (very) bad experience after.

Please don't misunderstand me I do not wish to imply that those who did not "get it" for want of better words should be ignored.
on the contrary, I would like very much to understand why the processes produce such phenomenal change in some and cause others to go off the deep end (that's a bit crass - sorry but you get my point).

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You say that psychosis is brought on by certain drugs - how come you don't say the person wasn't in the right place yet for the drug?

No - I am saying that some drugs work for some people and not for others.

Example. My mother used Zyban to quit smoking - worked a treat 7 weeks of that stuff and she hasn't touched a smoke in 5 years.

My father spent a week on it and was admitted to hospital. Same drug - same dosage - Hugely different outcome.

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Its also a little patronising (unintended I'm sure, but that's how it comes across) to say that someone isn't "in the right place yet". What does that mean? That I wasn't mature enough? Advanced enough? experienced enough? Vibrating at a high enough frequencey?

When it comes to working with ourselves - some people are not yet ready to deal with the emotional scars that injuries have left them with.

and the confrontational nature of LGATS may push them over the edge - I accept that, and do feel there should be some kind of screening process before.


Same drug - same dosage - hugely different outcome.



Altho this may come down to ethics - from what I have read here about Impact and others it would seem that ethics are lacking - I did not find that with the workshops I attended. but that might just be the brainwashing talking :)

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Facing what fears, exactly? Fear of being locked in a room for five days running, witnessing physical and verbal abuse of other people, being verbally abused myself - all to the tune of John Denver and Whitney Houston?

I know what you mean about the abuse - I was on the receiving end of a massive tirade ( I am an ex drug dealer and fairly well covered in tattoos)
They had a field day with me. and in the end I took responsibility for my actions and changed my life altho I still like tattoos :).

so for me it was a means to an end - and that sounds like a *shrug* comment.

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Being brainwashed to believe that all the murders, rapes and wars happening in the outside world are my fault because I said something wrong in a seminar room?

This is where interpretation comes in.

again I can only talk for me as I havn't lived your experiences.

I take responsibility for everything in the world from the children being raped in my country to the war in Iraq.
what this means is by acknowledging that it IS occurring I am in a position to make a choice. I can do something about it - or I can leave it.

If I do not take responsibility for it the CHOICE to do something about it does not present itself and the problem goes ignored.

Now i may not be able - in my small sphere of influence - to do something about the war in Iraq - but I sure as hell can do something about the guy on the side of the road begging for change wearing a T-shirt in the dead of winter.

Responsibility is not blame. I am not at fault for the war in Dafour however if I ignore it I may miss an opportunity to do something to help.

I hope that is clear - its not easy to convey these concepts via a text medium.

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Being told over and over and over again that if I don't do what the trainers want me to do "the universe" will sort me out?

See that is wrong - again I did not experience this kind of blackmail

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Then dancing around in costume to the point of exhaustion and getting laid out on the floor, in a state of shock (after being carried around in a ceremony to represent my own funeral)

We did stretches but they did not end like this. It sounds nasty.

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while a bunch of total strangers stroke my body and the trainer "revives" me as if she is some kind of god and I am jesus being resurrected

I never looked at it like that - and accept that this could be damaging.
My experience of contracts was a massive relief. like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders.

thank you for that. It has opened up an interesting train of thought for me.

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then being forced to listen to some of the most hair-raising secrets of other people that have nothing to do with me and that I would rather not hear

I found the sharing to be moving and an eye opener.
and I applaud anyone who has the strength to stand up in front of strangers and divulge deeply personal information.

We were not forced to share and have assisted on workshops where no one shared in this manner.

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being screamed at for murdering people because I am not capable of magically transforming four dolls in a lifeboat game into sixteen

Lifeboat was disturbing for me too - I was on the boat and I cried like a newborn when I could not "save" the others.

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and at the end of all this shit I get told to go out into the world and "Make A Difference" which in real English means "recruit people into Quest" - because my own life is pathetic?

Essence walk for us was not about recruiting, infact we were explicitly told not to divulge that this was part of a workshop. What I gained from it was this.

If I engage (more LGAT speak I know) with people in a particular manner
it is possible to gain and give trust to those who otherwise would not have it in their lives.

Please see the conversations with rsWinters as an example.

again this was my experience and learning from the process - others probably had a different view.

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Excuse me shouting, but its not a calm subject. And I'm not shouting at you, I'm shouting at the source of the LGAT logic that you're using.

I understand completely.
I get VERY upset when people start talking to me about the Church and how Christ died for my sins - I respect their beliefs but don't preach to me.

( If I sound preachy in the above I am not trying to convert you :))

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My main complaint is that I was deliberately decieved, manipulted, used and brainwashed. The rest I can forgive, but the deliberate and covert attempt to destroy my natural personality, character, values and beliefs ?

I will state for the record that I am aware that I have been "brainwashed" by the processes of these workshops - No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

I will also state that as a direct result of this brainwashing my life improved 10 fold.

had I been told upfront - We are gonna brainwash you and you'll be better for it I would have run a mile.

Now I know the whole world is going to jump on that statement - YOU LIKE BEING BRAINWASHED!!.

unashamedly the answer is yes. If you knew me before I was "brainwashed" you would thank your creator that I am not that person any more.

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Maxui, how did your life change due to your course? Did you get a new relationship? New Job?

New Life.

I forgave everyone including myself who had done wrong by me.
from this my relationship with my father improved to a point where he isn't "that fat c*#t" anymore he is "Dad." and I am proud and honoured that I am his son ( if you knew me you would understand what a huge shift that is for me)

I had a history of mentally abusive relationships with people who walked all over me.
now one or two bad relationships are expected in life.

I have never had a relationship where I was not cheated on an abused.
until now - the lady I am with currently is an awesome person who loves me unconditionally and she has not done any LGAT type things.

I am an instructor in the exquisite art of Kung fu and train and teach daily.
something my previous self would have laughed at. why should I take the time to teach and help other people.

I live my life in Love,humility and in service of others.

and for me - The universe gives me back exactly what I put into it.

If what I have stated above comes across as arrogant or judgemental I apologise. It is not my intention to judge.

and by the way
I am Trust - So much so that I have it tattooed down my right flank :0.

So in conclusion it would appear that altho the processes are the same or similar - the manner in which they are handled by the "trainer" differs vastly.
Perhaps this is the reason why things go wrong?


Also thank you SaneAgain. you have given me a lot to think about in regard to views I held as truth. It is always good to view things from a different perspective.

I hope I have done the same for you.

With Love always

Hi Shadow

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The Shadow
I feel so much better since I have been reading and sharing here, and I am grateful that people are brave enough to be honest.

If you have read my posts I am doing exactly that - sharing my experiences.

Now I am not easily offended, however suggesting that I am a liar (I assume you are referring to me in the above quote)
offends me to the Nth degree.

Not once have I put the integrity of anyone else's views into question in any of my posts here because I respect their views even though they differ- in some cases- vastly with my own and to be quite frank I would expect the same in return, that is just good manners.

I have shared openly and honestly in all my dealings here.
If you have specific problems with anything I have said I am always glad to respond in a civil and courteous manner.

Maxui wrote:

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However my response would not be "*shrug* It worked for me."

That is a massively selfish response and not in line at all with what I got out of the workshops I attended.

For me we are all one (and for rsWinters this is scientifically provable)
and any deliberate loss of life is unacceptable.

Presumably then you would not recommend that anyone attend an LGAT, and if anyone asked your advice you would recommend that they not do it?

Since reading this board and concluding that some sort of pre-screening should be implemented, have you gone back to your workshop leader and asked him to do so?

What kind of pre-screening would you recommend? Are the workshop leaders qualified to assess psychological and psychiatric issues? Would they be willing to use mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists, which their belief system does not approve of?

Did you read the part of my previous posts that explained that I was psychological healthy before quest? I'd have far better chance of passing a screening test than would a drug dealer with a history of abusive relationships. No offense, but that's how most I see it. I don't have severe emotional scars, only little ones. On the other hand I have seen people with dreadful scars loving every minute of quest. Sadly, they are also the ones who tend to become most dependent on it.

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I will state for the record that I am aware that I have been "brainwashed" by the processes of these workshops - No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

I will also state that as a direct result of this brainwashing my life improved 10 fold.

had I been told upfront - We are gonna brainwash you and you'll be better for it I would have run a mile.

Now I know the whole world is going to jump on that statement - YOU LIKE BEING BRAINWASHED!!.

unashamedly the answer is yes. If you knew me before I was "brainwashed" you would thank your creator that I am not that person any more.

Whether you like being brainwashed or not is irrevelevant. This is not a works for me / doesn't work for me issue. It is an ethical issue, where wfm / dwfm falls apart (which is what I meant by "follow the thinking to its logical conclusion - you run into ethical problems"

[b:172db3a041]Brainwashing a person without their consent is a violation of the fundamental human right to freedom of our own thoughts, beliefs and identity. [/b:172db3a041]

Let me know if you disagree with that.

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I take responsibility for everything in the world from the children being raped in my country to the war in Iraq.
what this means is by acknowledging that it IS occurring I am in a position to make a choice. I can do something about it - or I can leave it.

Funny how the quest and other lgat trainers take full responsibility for a tsunami at the other end of the world, but ignore psychiatric casualties that they actively created right on their own doorsteps.

Or is it a matter of they take responsibility then make a choice to just leave it, and carry on creating more? Interesting interpretation of responsibility...

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So in conclusion it would appear that altho the processes are the same or similar - the manner in which they are handled by the "trainer" differs vastly.
Perhaps this is the reason why things go wrong?

There is some truth in this.

One study of mass marathon training found:

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The authors also determined that it was neither the psychological traits of the subjects (i.e., predispositional factors) nor the ideology of the leaders (i.e., doctrinal factors) that determined the casualty rate. Instead, surprisingly, it was the style of leadership that was primary. Leaders who were aggressive, stimulating, intrusive, confrontive, challenging, personally revealing, and authoritarian were the leaders who caused the casualties.

Specifically these leaders often unilaterally structured the group's events. Their focus was on the individual rather than group process. They provided a comprehensive intellectual framework with which to understand one's self and one's world. They exercised firm control and were "ready, willing and able" to take over for participants and guide them to "enlightenment" (1972, p. 236). They were People who were charismatic leaders: they had a universal message to deliver, a foolproof technique to use, and a cause to recruit for. They were uninhibited in their attempts to convert all the participants in their group. These characteristics are clearly duplicated by many mass marathon trainers. The findings corroborated Gottschalk and Pattison's 1969 conclusions and again call into question many tactics used by mass marathon organizations.

and...

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The groups were determined to be dangerous when:

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

[www.culteducation.com]

So the degree of casualties may differ, you're right ... but in my opinion the qualities of leaders as described here are actually an integral and necessary part of the lgat structure (at least for those descended from est).

Also, different lgats like to throw stones at each other. For example, we get a lot of casualties from another lgat from Joyspring - who got pissed off or break down because of that training, then came to quest because they had friends who said quest was better.... anyway, the point is, I've heard Wendy say that the problem with Baruch's trainings (Joyspring) is that he works from ego, not love.

How would you describe the leader of the workshops you did?

The Shadow wrote:

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I feel so much better since I have been reading and sharing here, and I am grateful that people are brave enough to be honest.

Thanks Shadow...

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I understand that you are feeling very angry at been used so badly....I think my friend might be feeling that also, but not really understanding, that is why she lashed out at her boyfriend on night, and the very next night she lashed out at me.

I suspect you're right here... it's very distressing when it all starts unravelling and difficult to blame the lgat because that is precisely what you've been drilled not to do, and because you've invested so much in it - at least that's how I felt, until I reached a point where the evidence was undeniable and then I felt hugely free and relieved but as you say - mad as hell!! :lol:

Sounds like your friend is heading in that direction...


Maxui, earlier I said:

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I'd have far better chance of passing a screening test than would a drug dealer with a history of abusive relationships.

That sure sounds arrogant! :oops:

... I just don't have anything that dramatic in my life history, sorry :D Like I said, I only have small scars, not big ones, and no tattoos either.