Thank you, Stoic. I will pursue this further.

Been following this chat for a long time...so here is my little reply...

I think some of you had "issues" before even doing the courses, and all that happened was that your "true colours " were exposed by doing the courses,maybe.
Like anything and everything,it works for some and not for all, that is the simple fact.

There are surley bigger this to worry about, just cause i dont like cabbage, does not mean I must stop everyone from eating it.

Since the word cult is always mentioned, how about a real cult, like:

[www.thesun.co.uk]

Have you parted with $$$ after doing the courses, were you forced to return ? In fact did anyone hold a gun to your head and force you to stay, many people have walk out during the course, thats great, its their choice.
Dont like somthing, dont do it,yet why is it that people have a need to get onto a soap box and moan about it, are you bitter cause you did not get it?

I did the course over 11 years ago, did it affect me,Sure, in a possitive way. I saw for myself, how i behaved in the world,what i selfish prick i was, didnt turn into a angel , just behaved better towards myself and others. For me it has been how my behaviour, beliefs affected ME. i did other courses,didnt like them,so what. Still read a wide diversity of books( incl LGAT ), enjoy now having an open mind to whatever is out there,not wasting my time judging people for what they believe in....who cares. freedom of choice.


Yes, the mind is a powerful thing, so why in a room of 80 people, did it affect you in a "bad" way and not many others?

Surley it is something you should be asking yourself if the cousres did not help ,take a hard look at yourselves ,are you behaving exactly the same way as you did before the courses, depressed and bitter etc etc..
So move on,look for something else to make you happy. Another course,whatever.

Is it not fantastic , that there is not just 1 way,just as there are over 10,000 different religions on this planet, are you now going to tell me which one is the "right" one? people kill for their "crap"...

We are no better than, a person strapping a bomb on themselves to proof a point.
I say, do whatever makes you happy, yet dont destroy another on the way, in order for you to be right....... or join a forum that backs up your believe :) ..love the mob !!

Including myself, lets rather be constructive.

or will you be "killing me" with your words of reply? and before you do, remember i did they same courses as you and finished with a brighter outlook. And im truely sad that you did not get out , what i did.


"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd".Voltaire

Maybe we get all the answers when we expire, we can all have a laugh and talk about how silly we were...

love you all..have fun..and make the most of your time , do better than doing harm...

Dragon, I'm glad that you 'got' something from the LGAT courses that you attended, but you miss the point here.

Those courses are marketed very persuasively as being of benefit to all who attend, when the marketers themselves are aware that a good proportion of their attendees will not respond well to the very powerful techniques used indiscriminately on everyone and a small proportion will have very serious mental difficulties as a result of those powerful techniques.

They assume a one size fits all mentality in order to maximise profit and rate the human casualties as 'collateral damage'-- the cost of doing business.

They treat the attendees as machines to be fiddled with and adjusted, not as unique people with unique and different histories and unique and different 'issues' (which every human has as part of the baggage of being conscious) --who will of course respond differently to the powerful techniques in use.

They do this knowingly to vulnerable people, without full disclosure of what they are doing, with the sole intention of fattening their own bank balances ----at the expense of the mental injuries that they inflict on their vulnerable customers.

So I hope that you revel in whatever it is that you think you 'got' from attending your LGAT--there might come a time in your life when you realise that in that 'getting' you have surrendered something far more lasting and valuable.

Why can't the local governments under which these "programs" operate require psychiatric professionals oversee and license these groups?

It seems governments could find a great new revenue source (licensing fees, registration fees, legal oversight taxation, etc.) from overseeing these groups to make sure they operate under public safety.

Pay attention, governments...LGATs give you a GREAT tax/regulation revenue source with absolutely NO anti-regulation "compassionate sob stories" to bother with on the local news.

I mean, who on earth would whine and cry over government oversight of mental conditioning in a questionable environment? People need government to protect them from abuse, right? Why would LGATs that say they are enlightening and "helping" people be against that?

They wouldn't...unless it interferes with their bottom line (MONEY). And why would it (unless it made more people aware of the mental abuses these LGATs inflict).

To whom it may concern:

Dragon has been banned from this message board.

I am fully bewildered by the utter vapidness of rationale and misuse of intellect I have just read by the last handful of Quest apologists on this board. The knowledge of the fact that I once used to be a person that sounded somewhat like them has (once again) shocked me back into a stark contrast of perspective as to how relatively sane I have become since I left my American brand of LGAT crazy camp. Though I am not as active on these boards as I used to be, I have not forgotten the abuses and the victims of these slimy scam-mongers.

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Sparky
Why can't the local governments under which these "programs" operate require psychiatric professionals oversee and license these groups?

I have the same question. I walked out of Quest a while back but I have ex-friends still stuck in there and more being dragged in. Nobody seems to take the problem seriously.

I don't think there is much hope of help from government.

Israel tried to regulate the same group leader in Israel - Pat Grove's "I AM" training - according to the book "Despair and Deliverance: Private Salvation in Contemporary Israel" - Benjamin Beit-hallahmi.

Here is the relevant passage.

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Despair and Deliverance - Benjamin Beit-hallahmi
I AM

A 1984 Newsweek report on cults around the world included a reference to a South Africa cult, based in Johannesburg and known as I AM. Its founder, Pat Grove, was also facing criminal charcges but was planning to expand his activities overseas (Smolowe et al., 1984). Since then I AM is no longer prominent in South Africa, but the story of its rise and (relative) fall in Israel is instructive. In 1985, with the South African police on his heels, Pat Grove arrived in Israel. A couple of years later, I AM became known all over the country, its growth far surpassing that of est. By late 1987, I AM rented the large suite of offices that had been vacated by the shrinking est organization. Persons dialing the old est number were greeted to their great surprise by "I AM, good morning." Within four yours of activity, 10, 000 Israelis attended the I AM marathons. Stickers bearing the I AM logo could be seen everyhwere in Israel. IN 1989 Pat Grove encountered opposition from the psychiatric establishment when he wanted to offer special workshops for minors, sent by their parents.

A commission of enquiry was set up by the Health Ministry to investigate I AM following complaints about the worksphops for minors, which were alleged to endanger their mental health. The commission was appointed in June 1989 and included three psychiatrists, a psychologist, and a social worker. After the commission submitted its report the Health Ministry went to court in the fall of 1989 an dobtained injunctions forbidding I AM from holding any workshops dealing with "psychology or psychiatry". The public uproar that followed did not help I AM, but it seemed that something else happened. Like est, it reached the magical number of 10,000, which is apparently the size of the potential market for est-type groups in Israel. After the fall of 1989, Pat Grove left Israel for greener pastures..."

Pat Grove came back to South Africa and trained others including Baruch Banai and Wendy and Buster Sefor, and is himself still operating several coaching organisations. And they do have special trainings for kids "Kiddie's Quest".

The odd thing is that the Israeli Ministry of Health clearly found that Pat Grove's training was dangerous, but Pat Grove claims that he received honours from Israel - according to a bio on his website at The QI Institute - Pat Grove

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He is the only South African, besides Jan Smuts, to have his name entered in the Golden Book of Israel for services to that nation. He has a plantation of trees named after him in Jerusalem.

(I guess that's a lie, even if there is such a thing as a Golden Book)

Also with regard to government, Baruch Banai recently appeared on an SABC (government TV) show www.journeytothecore.co.za He is listed on the program schedule as a top guest, he is given the title of "Dr" (he is not a doctor) and his picture is on the page. Who knows what his fellow guests are part of.

Finally - the Quest training is held in a school hall. I assume the people running the school have been on quest training or are paid by quest. I don't know whether it is a government school or a private school, but all schools ultimately fall under government.

I'm not saying the government is 'in on it' - they're probably as clueless as old Dragon, thinking it is a matter of eating or not eating cabbage, as opposed to being turned into a happy cabbage, a broken cabbage or being left in tact as a rational human being with full free will.

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Dragon

I think some of you had "issues" before even doing the courses, and all that happened was that your "true colours " were exposed by doing the courses,maybe.

"True Colours" by Cyndi Lauper is a TRIGGER SONG used on almost every inquest, at the peak of the conversion ritual.

Dragon, it seems your purpose is not only to defend Quest, but to actively attempt to trigger Quest programming and thereby discourage people from thinking critically and speaking rationally against Quest.

The purpose of the TRIGGER SONG song is to form the initial pattern of the false personality created immediately after the natural personality is broken down, and to form a fake bond of 'love' to quest trainers and fellow ritual trainees - as well as a fake fear of breaking the INVALID secrecy oaths taken under coercion on Inquest.

Dragon, if you want your freedom and intelligence back, you need to notice and acknowledge that Quest is a HIERARCHICAL CONTROL SYSTEM - not a freedom system, empowerment system, or enlightenment system. Its not fun to admit you've been duped, but you have. I was too. Its not the end of the world to admit it.

I find this thread very interesting on a number of counts...

(a) I have been through primal therapy and find it is very much misunderstood. This is largely Janov's own fault because he made outrageous claims, failed to produce good peer-reviewed studies, and wasted a lot of energy telling other psychologist that they were wrong and he was right. (Psychologists don't like that! :)

(b) In his defence Janov intuitively predicted some of the findings that would later be confirmed by serious researchers such as Allan Schore (UCLA) and Jaak Panksepp (Head of Affective Neuroscience Research, Chicago Institute for Neurosurgery and Neuroresearch). Those of us who broke away from the way Janov's "trainee therapists" practiced, did very well.

(c) I personally knew some of the people who were leading Quest, Inquest, etc. some years ago when they came to me for help. I found them very pleasant, open to their feelings, and easy to help, though it was ironic that some of the leaders of the former were coming for primal sessions to deal with stuff that had been triggered during the Quest marathons but not resolved.

(d) One "participant" came to me in such severe breakdown after doing Quest that I had to refer him to a very experienced clinical psychologist for help (if I remember correctly, he had to be hospitalised).

(e) There is no connection between Quest, Inquest, etc. and primal therapy! The former uses power, control and manipulation along with a lot of New Age gobbledygook like "we create our own reality." Primal therapy, if properly practiced, provides safety, trust and containment in which an individual can explore and resolve any childhood traumas they may have. Provided there is enough "safe containment", the patient's psyche will set the pace as to how much childhood trauma becomes conscious. Techniques that override the defences are dangerous and have been abandoned by the Primal Institute (which is now run by Janov's ex-wife).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2012 08:14AM by Misty.

"Sane Again" -- in response to your post in 2007 -- I'm fascinated to hear from someone who has actually done the course. In the past I had personal dealings with people who came to me for help (including some of the trainers) but was never able to find out what actually went on, because they are not allowed to disclose anything. So I have a question for you. If someone felt that they were being abused, and stood up to the trainers and got really assertive and angry with them, what would be done to that person? My understanding of a cult is a place where you give up your personal power, insights or beliefs and are controlled by someone else, to the point where you blindly accept what they say, are too afraid to stand up to them, or are punished or endangered if you try to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2012 10:20AM by Misty.