Rick,

I hope this is an appropriate subject matter. I am a man that desires to continue my growing as a man in being more of a emotionally healthy, and relationally safe person by being a emotionally healthy person in my interactions with others.

So, I would be interested to hear from the many members who have wasted years within LGAT's training. I was only enmeshed for almost 2 years myself.
What I am sorting out still in me is this. Even though overall I see the destructiveness of LGAT's as I have shared the realization that narcissism is the driving force behind these groups. I faced this within myself, and still am facing this destructive mindset within myself.
Here is what I would like to hear comments on. I have been discovering alot of the tools that are used by these companies are some what good tools overall when applied properly with relationships kept in the forefront.
I actually am coming across these tools in many places that have already been apart of my life that I did not see beforehand in my life.
I am also discovering many organizations out there that approach these tools within a more emotionally, and financially responsible manner.
What I am seeing as the biggest difference is the time frame of working out these tools within a persons life with keeping relational health with others in the forefront.
The narcissism, and hedonism that is embraced in LGAT's is what I am seeing as distorting these tools in peoples lives.
Depending on the level each of these self focused philosphies in an individuals life seems to be what has the biggest influence on what gets created in each persons life.
I believe my desire not to allow for narcissism, and hedonism to rule my life has created for me the conflict with Klemmer & Associates philosophy for me.
Anyways, I would like to hear others thoughts on this subject matter.
If this subject matter exists on another thread? Sorry, didn't see it.
Look forward to hearing where others are on this aspect of tools presented in LGAT's.
Please share about both Good, and bad tools if this is an appropriate subject matter for this site.
I hope it is, as I am still sorting out my mind being brainwashed and sifting through all aspects of the past two years with trying to identify what parts are good and should be applied in my life. With identifying the bad and removing from my thinking and belief system.

I have posted many posts recently. I have just stepped out my entanglement in Klemmer & Associates philosophy in my life. So, this is all very fresh for me...

I did not post the organizations which I have discovered over the past few months that I believe to be working with people and addressing belief systems that we hold in a very emotionally sound manner in peoples lives.
I found one that deals with basically the same tools that Klemmer & Associates delivers in seminars.
The biggest difference is this one doesn't cost that much at all. It is basically almost free. Plus it utilizes a more emotionally stable environment that comes from going through taking on our belief systems in a more slower fashion.
Plus the biggest and most important aspect of all. The founder of this organization is a licensed psychiatrist with years of training and field work to show evidence of his working with people and their destructive belief systems held.
I have been using this organizations tools to help me with sorting out the mess of LGAT's within my life.
Some of the tools are similar such as recognizing that its my belief system that is creating in my life alot of problems.
Recognizing this is not destructive, and it can be very beneficial when applied to my life with keeping my focus on being relational with others as being my end goal.
Its when I turn the focus inward and choose to use this identification to drive narcissism, and hedonism deeper into my psyche and how I live that seems to be the huge problems with LGAT's influence on me, and others.
LGAT's approach wants to face these destructive belief systems in us with a quick fix which is a strong character flaw in us all.
This other approach that has the psychiatric licensing backing behind it a much more slower and emotionally healthier approach to changing them.
So, I am seeing addressing our destructive belief systems as a good thing that LGAT's are saying is the basis of their philosophy. What I disagree with is their approach in dealing with these destructive beliefs systems within each of us.
In my opinion they are breaking people down emotionally by addressing a very clinically proven aspect of how we all have destructive belief systems that cause us problems. Where I am finding myself very angry about is that these companies which are not licensed to work with people at this very deep psyche level that is destroying people emotionally when they are not able to handle what gets dealt with at this emotional level.
Then after breaking down peoples psyches and opening them up to giving them the companies belief system to live by. It works for some, and not for others. Which these companies get to hide behind slick excuses for how they are not liable for how people use their tools given in seminars.
I served in the Marine Corp Infantry for 4 years of my life. It is a very known aspect that in boot camp. There are 3 phases of boot camp.
1. Breaking down phase which involves mentally, emotionally, and physically.
2. Retraining and building up stage with Marine Corp philosophy and standards in mental, emotional, and physical standards.
3. I can't remember the last stages name. But its basically a polishing stage of these parts of a marines mental, emotional, and physical elements to what give the man the means to succeed in the Marine Corp life.
Basically, LGAT's are no different in how they operate. The breakdown stage or seminar is what opens a person to the LGAT's philosophy.
Who would not want to change their life when they are confronted with how destructive a belief is and how it is creating problems as I hang onto it.
We all have destructive beliefs within us, and LGAT's have found methods to make us face them in a breakdown fashion that is very powerful and overwhelming when experiencing it.
Only catch is this though. Because of this breakdown we are like a blank sheet in our psyche and prone to buying into the belief system of the company not doubting it since they made us face ourselves in such a powerful manner.
This is where I think the Attorney General has a legal case with LGAT's.
Because within the confines of a licensed professional psychiatrist that has years of medical training with peoples psyches this kind of a breakdown is healthy. They help you discover by slowly working with you in discovering what is emotionally healthy and sound within the context of yourself, and living in relationship with others.
LGAT's are creating this breakdown that is undeniably powerfully proven to be where people turn of their brains and embrace these tools with a strong application that is entrenched in narcissism, and hedonism philosophy driving the fast paced delivery of using these tools.
The tools are tools and I don't argue this. What I do see is these tools are delivered within a context formed from humanism, narcissism, and hedonism belief and philosophy at its core.

In proof reading my post here. I remember Brian Klemmer is a West Point graduate, and served in military for some years. As I look at how he has created his company, and how he delivers his LGAT philosophy to participants in his seminars. As I am processing the boot camp process that I went through in the Marine Corp that still affects my life with both good and bad in regards to how I interact with other people in my life.

How I needed to be to be a Marine that would be able to survive in a war zone, is not necessarily the best way to be with people in the civilian world. I have been out 20 years and still run into relational aspects that I was engrained with in the military.

So this very known and effective process of being broken down, retrained, and polishing process that takes place in LGAT's is very much something to be addressed in our society by the Attorney General.

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Rswinters
1. Breaking down phase which involves mentally, emotionally, and physically.
2. Retraining and building up stage with Marine Corp philosophy and standards in mental, emotional, and physical standards.
3. I can't remember the last stages name. But its basically a polishing stage of these parts of a marines mental, emotional, and physical elements to what give the man the means to succeed in the Marine Corp life.

It's called "freezing," in other words making the changes as fixed and permanent, as stubborn and resistant, and as closely held as the original aspects of personality that the individual arrived with. And yes, you are right -- the Marine Corps and other elite military groups use the same tactics for the reasons that they work. There are major differences, deception being front and center, however. You might be interested to read Margaret Singer's, "Why the Marine Corps is Not a Cult."

Quote

Basically, LGAT's are no different in how they operate. The breakdown stage or seminar is what opens a person to the LGAT's philosophy.
Who would not want to change their life when they are confronted with how destructive a belief is and how it is creating problems as I hang onto it.
We all have destructive beliefs within us, and LGAT's have found methods to make us face them in a breakdown fashion that is very powerful and overwhelming when experiencing it.
Only catch is this though. Because of this breakdown we are like a blank sheet in our psyche and prone to buying into the belief system of the company not doubting it since they made us face ourselves in such a powerful manner.
This is where I think the Attorney General has a legal case with LGAT's.
Because within the confines of a licensed professional psychiatrist that has years of medical training with peoples psyches this kind of a breakdown is healthy. They help you discover by slowly working with you in discovering what is emotionally healthy and sound within the context of yourself, and living in relationship with others.
LGAT's are creating this breakdown that is undeniably powerfully proven to be where people turn of their brains and embrace these tools with a strong application that is entrenched in narcissism, and hedonism philosophy driving the fast paced delivery of using these tools.
The tools are tools and I don't argue this. What I do see is these tools are delivered within a context formed from humanism, narcissism, and hedonism belief and philosophy at its core.

In proof reading my post here. I remember Brian Klemmer is a West Point graduate, and served in military for some years. As I look at how he has created his company, and how he delivers his LGAT philosophy to participants in his seminars. As I am processing the boot camp process that I went through in the Marine Corp that still affects my life with both good and bad in regards to how I interact with other people in my life.

How I needed to be to be a Marine that would be able to survive in a war zone, is not necessarily the best way to be with people in the civilian world. I have been out 20 years and still run into relational aspects that I was engrained with in the military.

So this very known and effective process of being broken down, retrained, and polishing process that takes place in LGAT's is very much something to be addressed in our society by the Attorney General.

What you've written is very interesting. I'd like to recommend Alexander Lowen's little book "Narcissism," to you in which he talks about the necessity of essential narcissism in combat. Also, David Grossman's, "On Killing," if you haven't read it.


Ellen

LOLOL...

Just checked his website -- he gives it away with his list of clients. All the pyramiders are there: Mary Kay, Amway, Primerica. There's sure a lot of cross-pollination going on.

I guess you'd be surprised to find there's scientology in the mix, of course. It's just another copy-cat, as far as I can tell. They are all so similar.


Ellen