> Anyone who has not done Landmark and reads this entire thread will be able to see for themselves the difference between persons who have been in Landmark & have rejected its world view and those who remain trapped in the Landmarkian racket.<

We are a very ‘positional’, opinionated and entrenched bunch aren’t we ? Lots of critics, a few weird fans, and very little discussion in-between by neutral posters.

It amazes me there are no intelligent Landmark fans on the Internet prepared to defend it.

I did meet some intelligent people in Landmark and I know they exist, they just don’t seem willing to identify themselves with Landmark in the open. Their reticence is presumably caused by personal embarrassment and an instinctive sense of self-preservation from public ridicule.

I suppose we should be grateful.

Chris

The simple reason that NO ONE is able to give an intelligent defense of Landmark, is that there isn't one! There are all sorts of rationalizations, but as they are picked apart, virtually every single Landmarkian i have seen just falls into CRAZED personal attacks.
Ad Hominem is all that's left, as there are no evidence or facts to use.

The negatives people are saying about Landmark here are TRUE.
Its just that simple.

Landmark has no independent scientific studies by NUMEROUS objective sources to analyze the results of their seminars.

For instance, a person could attack Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
And guesss what?
They WELCOME it. You look at the scientific evidence of studies from many different sources. Attacks on the methodology and theories are what science is all about.

The reason there is NOT ONE intelligent defense of Landmark, is in my opinion, because it doesn't exist.
Look what a jackass Tom Cruise is making of himself recently with his extreme promotion of $cientology. He is making a total fool of himself.
How could you NOT make a fool of yourself when defending $cientologies "cleansing" or Cosmology, or "E-meter" and Auditing, etc.

In my view, its the same with Landmark.
How can you defend manipulation, lies, tricks, and that life is meaningless, and people are mere pawns to be used for money, etc?

Coz

Maybe they are intelligent enough to know that it would be foolish to try to defend an organisation like Landmark in public or in an arena where they cannot control the conversation. Or that there is no defense of Landmark, really.

You said:

>>We are a very ‘positional’, opinionated and entrenched bunch aren’t we ? Lots of critics, a few weird fans, and very little discussion in-between by neutral posters. >>


The way you've stated this suggests that we critics are too rigid or inflexible to allow any new or contrary evidence to sway our opinions or alter our conclusions. Are you in possession of some information that might redeem Landmark in some way? What would you imagine a neutral poster would have to say?



Ellen

I'm not involved with Landmark personally, though I have a friend who is.

I'd say, speaking only from personal opinion here, that there are probably smart folks doing landmark because they get something out of it, who won't and don't defend it because they know it is a dangerous mess.

And that while those people may be able to take some benefit from it and come through safely, they don't think it's responsible behaviour to be recommending it to others, or defending it.

Penny

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kico
>

It amazes me there are no intelligent Landmark fans on the Internet prepared to defend it.

I did meet some intelligent people in Landmark and I know they exist, they just don’t seem willing to identify themselves with Landmark in the open. Their reticence is presumably caused by personal embarrassment and an instinctive sense of self-preservation from public ridicule.

I suppose we should be grateful.

Chris

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automaticftp
All--

I'd be grateful for some thoughts on whether it is possible to date someone who has been to both the forum and the advanced course.

Background: I've recently "met" (virtually) someone who I'm interested in dating. Having read a variety of materials both on this forum and on Rick's site, I'd like to be cautious but not paranoid. I've never been to any LEC events and have no interest in them. Obviously if she starts the "you've gotta GO to REALLY understand..." thing, I'll advance in a different direction, as the infantry puts it...

I've graduated from a variety of some of the hardest Army schools that exist (Ranger school, SFAS, sniper, airborne, air assault, etc., not to mention the first Gulf war), some of which sound rather like a cross between LGAT and highly persuasive sales techniques. I'm also a law student and have an embarrassingly high iq score and have, I think, a very sensitive bs detector. Finally, I've got a degree in philosophy and LOL at what they pass off as 'philosophy.' So I'm reasonably confident I'll see something coming in a one-on-one setting.

I suppose my bottom line question is this: is forewarned really forearmed in a one on one setting? I'd appreciate your thoughts, and apologies to all if this isn't appropo...

Best,

Auto

Auto/everybody/nobody/myself:

Not that anyone will probably give a rat's a--, but I dated a scientologist female for a while. She was a very beautiful blonde, and yes, I wasn't dating her for her brains.

That shortcoming was quite apparent when she offered to audit me with the infamous e meter. She assured me that even though the wires were attached to my fingers, the current would run up to my brain. Then she declared that if the needle moved freely from max. to min. that I was "clear." It's just an over priced galvanic response meter similar to that which you can pick up at edmund scientific for a fraction of the price.

Like my "landmarky" friend she was hyper sensitive to what she considered "negativity." I got sick of having to talk in "Bambi" all the time. Over time I secretly grew to think her a complete new age idiot. I don't see how anyone one could ever function in the world and not be able to criticize anything--especially if it is truly defective.

Her parents were truly WEIRD and they looked at me the way conservative republicans look at Al Franken, I imagine. Yet the COS "technology" didn't prevent them from becoming unemployed. At least that gave them more time to spend at COS HQ. The whole family demonstrated a kind of weird giddiness/over friendliness.

My friend who endeavored to recruit me assured me that he could dissolve clouds and manifest rainstorms all the power of his mind. He further claimed that he could move objects with his mind and manifest wealth. He assured me that one of his associates had driven his/her car on empty for several days, I assumed he was insinuating that s/he could power their car by "mind power."
One night he pointed up at a star and told me that some aliens whose name escapes me live there. He either claimed that we were from there or that they were out to get us. I don't remember which. The darkness hid my amusement.

Yet the local COS there was in the seedier side of town in an ancient building, they all drove unremearkable vehicles and clearly they couldn't afford day care as they had all of the children sequestered in a side room in the COS office.

After I took their plagiarized copy of the Minnesota Multi Phasic assessment, they told me that I was already clear from a so-called past life, but I needed to continue my auditing from the past life to remain so. I smiled.

My point, if there is any, is that sooner or later you're going to meet the parents, the friends and the coworkers. These people all seemd to feel that they had to spend nearly every free moment at the local COS. I sort of give off "don't mess with me vibes" around fanatical types of any religion or creed so not surprisingly we didn't date long, and her parents did NOT like me in the least. The feeling was mutual. I detest idiots--especially the kind that think they're enlightened and look down their noses at you. But a few weeks later I got a letter...written in crayon!...encouraging me to come attend the COS. So I wrote her and told her what I really though, and yes, it was "negative." Sometimes certain concepts cannot quite appropriately be framed in "Bambi" terminology.

I never heard from the COS again.

Good riddance.

So my point? You may have a good time with her, but I bet a year's salary you'll seriously tire of her in a few months. The people who I've always cherished the company of the most were the ones who respected my thoughts, feelings and ideals. After all, despite whatever fleshy facades, that's what we truly are I feel. I can think of nothing more flattering than someone who wants to be with me for what I think.

My own culty cutie only had eyes and ears for COS thoughts, feelings and ideals. She had nothing for mine except uncomfortable silence. I suspect that you'll eventually reach the same conclusion and dump your culty cutey too.

SS

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sunsetserene



Her parents were truly WEIRD and they looked at me the way conservative republicans look at Al Franken, I imagine. Yet the COS "technology" didn't prevent them from becoming unemployed. At least that gave them more time to spend at COS HQ. The whole family demonstrated a kind of weird giddiness/over friendliness.

My friend who endeavored to recruit me assured me that he could dissolve clouds and manifest rainstorms all the power of his mind. He further claimed that he could move objects with his mind and manifest wealth. He assured me that one of his associates had driven his/her car on empty for several days, I assumed he was insinuating that s/he could power their car by "mind power."

SS

Geez SS...was the whole family in Co$???

At Landmark we would ascribe all sorts of oustide events as being sourced from "who we were managing the existence of ourselves as".
You'd also would hear things like "you hear about that breakthrough at the mideast summit? that was because a 'grad' got up and shared at the meeting". Unverifiable crap all the time. After a while it produces it's own momentum and moves from hearsay to "fact". Fact in quotes not in reality.

SS--

Actually, I am interested and do care. As I mentioned, we met once and that was it. And talking with another woman later that night on the phone was a revelation!

I appreciate all the advice I received here--it was indeed an invaluable resource.

Auto

Quote
elena


You said:

>>We are a very ‘positional’, opinionated and entrenched bunch aren’t we ? Lots of critics, a few weird fans, and very little discussion in-between by neutral posters. >>


The way you've stated this suggests that we critics are too rigid or inflexible to allow any new or contrary evidence to sway our opinions or alter our conclusions. Are you in possession of some information that might redeem Landmark in some way? What would you imagine a neutral poster would have to say?



Ellen

Hi Ellen,

Don’t you think most of us critics have a deal of emotional investment in our criticism of Landmark/Co$ etc. ? Maybe because we’ve been damaged or seen loved ones damaged by ~transformational~ programmes ? Nothing wrong with that of course, but I would like to see more professional medical and psychological opinions as well as those of fans and critics.

A neutral critic, without the personal axe to grind, might analyse how the tech works psychologically in objective scientific terms. Some people are already doing that here and making a very good job of it too, but they are not mental health professionals as far as I know.

As I've already posted on the BDSM thread, apart from depersonalisation and dissociation I think there are other outcomes from cultic/Human Potential involvement. Two obvious results are post-traumatic stress (induced by the trauma of the personal emotional exercises, age regression, and challenging new mental concepts like ~transformation~ or ~rackets~) and addiction/dependency encouraged by continuing involvement with groups. I think both are influenced by the chemical and hormonal effects of cult/HP involvement where wide mood swings result from the release of adrenalin and endorphins and other ‘happy hormones’ in the brain which affect mental states and behaviour.

Incidentally until I found this site I didn’t appreciate the concept of depersonalisation properly. Now on reflection I can see how old pre-indoctrinated Chris had a good relationship with reality, I had just a normal range of anxieties and neuroses but was basically mentally healthy, well motivated, functioning well and making good quality decisions in my life. After I became a victim of ‘Personal Development’/Human Potential work I suffered all the classic symptoms of depersonalisation, feeling I was an actor observing myself in a drama or workshop called my ‘life’ instead of being a real person. My values and behaviour all deteriorated, my decision making ability became terrible, but none of it mattered because I was just an observer in a passive dissociated trance state. It’s like being in a waking dream state where the subconscious mind takes charge over the conscious mind, and behaviour becomes infantilised. In Transactional Analysis terms, the internal child takes over decision making functions from the parent or adult.

I’d like to see medical research done and published on the emotional effects of cult/HP participation where people’s emotional states are tested and measured before and after high-demand workshops like Landmark.

These medical studies could then be used as evidence by those of us who want to limit or regulate cults and LGATs as well as for ongoing anti-cult publicity, and for advice to mental health professionals who have to pick up the pieces for people in recovery from psychological damage.

Chris

'After I became a victim of ‘Personal Development’/Human Potential work I suffered all the classic symptoms of depersonalisation:

'Feeling I was an actor observing myself in a drama or workshop called my ‘life’ instead of being a real person.

'My values and behaviour all deteriorated

My decision making ability became terrible, but none of it mattered because I was just an observer in a passive dissociated trance state.

'It’s like being in a waking dream state where the subconscious mind takes charge over the conscious mind.'

The worrisome thing is that some HP groups and intensive group seminars convince us that the dissociated/derealized state of mind Kico describes is progress, is something GOOD

And that you're inferior, unevolved or 'asleep' if you're grounded in your life, participating in it, savoring it as it unfolds, rather than standing apart from your life, like a scientist at a control panel.

There is a fascinating article by John Falk, in the November 2001 issue of Esquire. It is entitled 'No Zoloft, No Peace.'

Falk describes how he went to sleep at age 13, a normal outgoing kid, into athletics all the stuff a young guy cares about--and woke up next morning in a sickeningly bleak state of mind 'Chained to a ball of metaphysical doubt.' Young John Falk found himself frozen, on the outside of his life staring in, wondering what the purpose of it all was.

What Falk did not know was that overnight, a biochemical shift occurred and he had plunged into depression. He spent 10 years pretending to be normal, when inside himself he felt like an alienated freak. He found relief acting out, and finally ran out of energy at age 23. He began planning suicide,and hesitated only because he knew how horrible it would be for his family.

He begged his parents for help, was sent to a psychiatrist and described how an antidepressant changed his life.

Falk discovered that his medicine had kicked in when, one morning he took a walk and realized he was no longer a spectator to his life. He was simply, physically 'embedded' in life, enjoying little things like the smell of a wood fire, the rustling of his hair by the morning breeze.

It was because he was 'in life' no longer a spectator to his life that he was healed.

Later in the article, Falk describes how, in a bizarre set of circumstances, he was cut off from his supply of anti-depressant, and his depression returned. The first sign that he was falling back into the doldrums was when he found he could not concentrate on an article was writing.

And began asking 'Why bother?'

Sounds very close to what some of us have reported after going through certain HP workshops

Its well worth reading and perhaps photocopying this article for your personal files.

Right now its speculative, but perhaps heavy, high intensity programs produce group ecstacy because of mass serotonin surge, which produces one subset of disabling symptoms (see URL below) then when you go home, your serotonin is depleted, you get depressed and derealized, then you crave another group experience to get the rush back.

*Possibly some persons are biochemically susceptible to serotonin surge followed by depletion and are more likely to experience disabling side effects from badly run HP groups and problematic LGATs. This is yet another topic that cries for a well designed medical research study.

They've been able to test serotonin responses to Transcendental Meditation and have found that the disabling side effects many people experience after doing TM are attributable to elevated serotonin. (There's such a thing as too much serotonin as well as too little!)

[unstress4less.org]

Similar serotonin surges are produced by practicing Transcendental Meditation and TM people report a high incidence of trance and burn out.

Joyce Collin Smith lost her ability to function as a novelist after shed been in TM for 10 years. She reports experiences similar to those of young John Falk, except she used more metaphysical language. But like him, she came to the brink of suicide. You can read this in Chapter 14 of her online book Call No Man Master

[www.isleofavalon.co.uk]

Our little library of reading material on depersonalization is here

[forum.culteducation.com]

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corboy
What Kico says here is very important

Thanks for the feedback and links corboy.

You can call me Chris - kico (pronounced Keecho) is just my logon ID here.

Chris