Quote

In the United States, we have altered the public conversation about our workand our enterprise. For example, it is no longer possible for informed people or publications to pin pejorative labels on us.

--Harry Rosenberg, CEO Landmark Education Corporation
[religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu]

Is Landmark a cult? Landmark has worked hard, most notably through lawsuits, to prevent Landmark from being called a cult in public. (I'm not even sure this thread wil get past the moderator.)

It's an interesting question and worth discussion. It's also a very tender spot for LEC and Landmark graduates.

Whoa! I'm pleased to discover that this thread topic made it past the moderator.

Those of you who are critical of Landmark would do well to focus on the cult question. Landmark's case that they are not a cult is largely a bluff. Their real muscle is the threat of lawsuits. In open debate, however, it's difficult for them to make headway against the cult charge.

I know that most here in Cult Education already believe that LM is a cult, but I seriously suggest you bone up on this line of argument. It's an excellent counter-attack (richly deserved after all the deflection counter-attacks Landmark uses), it's the last thing Landmark wants, and they are vulnerable.

Dunno man to me it would only make sense that if a group is accused of or believed to be involved in cult like activities and they go to great lengths to deny or discredit the alligations, that if the allegations themselves were unfounded there would be little need to address them and therefore are not attempting to protect a worthy image but more so to protect and hide their schemes. Even though a decent and honest business could definatly suffer from the negative publicity of being accused of cult like activity, the fact that they are honest would shine through the false accusations. After all you dont send fire fighters to fight a fire that isnt burning.

If you take the time to look at the Database on Ricks home page you will see several groups that by clinical definition made by doctors and psychologists and alot of other people with more letters at the end of their names than me, that these groups do indeed fit the criteria for what is largely conscidered a cult. So even if we humble annonymous people here on the message board managed to rationalize and conclude that LEC was actually not a cult, there is probably some doctor or psychologist or what have you, who says otherwise and quite frankly we all know who the rest of the world would be more likely to listen to.

If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck and waddles and swims like a duck, chances are it ISNT a damn chicken...

Old news Jack.....


It's a combo/hybrid/mixed bag cult, pyramid scheme, multi-level marketing scam, New Age self-improvement bizcult, scientology "squirrel" group, charismatic leader centered/slave-labor/mind control organisation. (D'I miss anything?) For purposes of discussion and because Landmarkers are a litigious bunch, they're referred to as an "LGAT," mostly to save academic types the time and money needed to defend themselves in court. Large Group Awareness Training. In other words, CULT.


Ellen

You're kidding, right?

Come on, Jack.

I love this part:
(I'm not even sure this thread wil get past the moderator.)

If Rick didn't censor Rude Dawg, what makes even say that except for spin value?

What part of what GC4062 and I have been telling you, do you resist most?

Geez.....:rolleyes:

Guy

Gosh. I do make you guys crazy. You are misreading me entirely.

I'm serious about this topic and Landmark has been so determinedly litigous about any association of their name with the word 'cult' that they have scared a number of people publishing in any format (note the big DISCLAIMER at the bottom of every web page here) that I don't know where the RR moderator draws the line.

For those of you who want to go after a real Landmark soft spot, this is one. But the trick is to do it specifically and cogently--which is not always the style I see here, I must say.

For instance, Elena's slap-dash, run-on catalog presumes the reader is already in her camp. To a neutral person, much less a Landmark proponent, such a response would only sound like the peculiar rant of someone with an obvious axe to grind.

Pick up any reference, book, study, magazine article, interview, or anything else printed in the last 30 years about cults and/or cult mind control and there will be some mention of est, Werner Erhard, or Landmark and all the other mutations and weird spawn of scientology and Mind Dynamics.* Pull up anything written about Landmark and there will be mention of cults or the cult issue somewhere. Even in their own literature. For CHRISSAKES, *this* website is about cults. Werner walked in doo-doo when he went to his scientology and Mind Dynamics sessions and he will never get it off his shoe. Or the smell that follows him wherever he goes. That's why he's using the name "Werner Spits" now. Even he would like to make "Werner Erhard" ~disappear.~ Just like the "new" Landmark.


Hehehehe...


Ellen

* Historical references go back to the "Mind Cure" nonsense of a hundred years ago, and the religious wackos who were hounded out of Europe and escaped to found this county, the U.S.

My doctor, on a few occasions, told me how I had misinterpreted things he said or did. He always had an "out".

There is no cult question. Perhaps you do not know what a cult is. THAT is the ignorance LEC uses. And once you have been scrubbed...good luck finding the definition of cult again unless it all collapses for you. Not the way most psychologists would suggest exiting a manipulative org, i'd think.

And forget your contradiction bullshit Jack. That is where cog dissonance starts. If you can't see that you are more naive than previously indicated.

|

Here is one reading list that covers about a 20 year period. I don't know who compiled it. The earlier articles are the most interesting IMO. Some recognized it as a cult long before the whole truth came out about its origins and the man who founded it. It is from Linda's site.

Ellen




4/18/96 | True Believers| Westword (Denver) | Steve Jackson |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 5/18/95 | Unethical Practices of Three Groups in Madison | Thesis - U of Wisconsin Madison | Jordana Thomadsen|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 12/20/94 | 'Cult' activity worries some watchdog groups| Colorado Daily p1 | Lisa Marshall |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 8/7/94 | Firm turns to est guru, still slides | San Diego Union-Tribune pI2 | Don Bauder |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 5/1/94 | The Humbling of John Sculley | Worth | Jesse Kornbluth |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 12/20/93 | Transcript # 996 Interview of President of Church of Scientology in Response to Erhard | Larry King Live | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 12/8/93 | Transcript # 986 Interview of Werner Erhard | Larry King Live | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 11/10/93 | Transcript #419 Interview of Beth Hanover | Sonya Live | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 9/1/93 | Power of Babble | Westword (Denver) | Patricia Calhoun |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 4/24/93 | HP Board considers "cult" training for students | Michigan Citizen | Ron Seigel |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 2/1/93 | White Collar Cults | Self p120 | Dirk Mathison |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/1/93 | Outrageous Betrayal: The Dark Journey of Werner Erhard from est to Exile | Book | Steven Pressman |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/1/93 | The Siren Call of Modern Pied Pipers | Employee Assistance | Lawrence A. Pile |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/1/93 | Influence: The New Psychology of Modern Persuasion | Book | Robert B. Cialdini, Ph.D. |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 12/6/92 | Psychiatrists concerned as 'guru of gurus' heads for Hongkong | South China Morning Post p1 | Perter Woolrich |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 11/30/92 | Suit Against New-Age Groups Hit Snags | Legal Times p14 | Steven Pressman |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 11/11/92 | Success rate of Western Youth Ranch program questioned| News-Times, Newport, OR| Pierre LaBossiere|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 11/4/92 | Youth ranch director pursues vision; opponents continue investigation| News Guard - Lincoln City, OR | Pam Geddes |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/23/92 | Seminars leave firms divided & Mercinary Mindbogglers | The London Times | Ray Clancy |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/22/92 | Mind game courses aimed at public sector workers | The London Times | Ray Clancy |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/22/92 | New Age guru goes into hiding| The London Times | Ben Macintyre |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/21/92 | Professionals fall prey to New Age gurus | The London Times | Ray Clancy |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/21/92 | Mind games lure victims into baring their souls | The London Times | Ray Clancy |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/16/92 | Woman wins suit over ill effects of self-help course (FORUM) | Washington Times pB8 | Kristan Metzler |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/16/92 | Est Founder Is Ordered To Pay $380,000 for Fraud (Clarification 7/31/92 pA2) | Washington Post pB7 | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/7/92 | A Cult of Victims | Newsday p37 | M. G. Lord |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/7/92 | Self-Help Course Allegedly Shattered a Life | Washington Post | Robert F. Howe |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 6/14/92 | Youth program raises concern | Austin American-Statesman | Pamela Ward |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 6/1/92 | Mixing Lawyers and Cults| California Bar Magazine p22,24 | Steven Pressman |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 3/16/92 | Cults: If You Can't Beat 'em . . .| The Recorder p2 | Stephen G. Hirsch|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 3/9/92 | Taking Cults to Court for Psychological Injuries | New Jersey Law Review p4 | Steven Pressman |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 2/11/92 | Few agencies interested in est-like program | The Columbus Dispatch | Sylvia Brooks |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 2/10/92 | Agency spends $4,800 on 'cultlike' seminars | The Columbus Dispatch | Sylvia Brooks |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/1/92 | 60 Minutes and the Assassination of Werner Erhard| Book | Jane Self, Ph.D. |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/1/92 | Mind Cults Invade The Boardroom | Candian Business | Arthur Johnson |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 12/29/91 | Founder of est Targeted in Campaign by Scientologists | Los Angeles Times | Robert W. Welkos |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 9/2/91 | Wandering Werner | Forbes p10 | Graham Button |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 8/1/91 | IRS Accuses est Head of Tax Dodging | Los Angeles Times | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/31/91 | IRS Says Personal Growth Guru Is Mastermind of Money Shams | San Francisco Daily Journal | Rex Bossert |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/31/91 | Erhard Owes $5.5 Million, Tax Court Says | San Francisco Examiner pA6 | Seth Rosenfeld |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 7/10/91 | Out of the hot tub into the fire, Werner Erhard of "est" loses to the IRS | Wall Street Journal A,1:5 | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 4/30/91 | Erhard posts a partial victory | San Francisco Examiner | Staff Reporter |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 4/12/91 | IRS puts lien on Erhard's assets | San Francisco Examiner | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 3/27/91 | Guru Erhard Accused of Trying to Hide Assets| Los Angeles Times D2 | Martha Groves |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 3/26/91 | More Legal Woes for Erhard:...sale of est founder's seminar business was fraudulent | The San Francisco Chronicle | Don Lattin |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 3/3/91 | Est founder's daughter says Erhard molested her, raped her sister | San Jose Mercury News | John Hubner |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 3/3/91 | Interview with some of Erhard's staff & family | 60 Minutes | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 2/18/91 | The Sorrows of Werner | Newsweek p72 | D.Gelman, P. Abramson,|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/6/91 | FAMILY AFFAIRS Werner Erhard's daughters speak out | Marin Independent Journal F1| Nikki Meredith |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/6/91 | Previous Troubles of the 'King of Transformation'| Marin Independent Journal E4| Nikki Meredith |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 1/1/91 | Book with references to the FORUM | Combatting Cult Mind Control| Steve Hassan|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| 6/18/90 | Werner, dearest. . .Some former employees say WE&A operates more like a cult . . . | Marin Independent Journal D6| Nikki Meredith |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


continued....