I'd like to explore this with a new topic. Maybe if we can get the PROCESS out into the open, then people will recognize it when they see it and (hopefully) work to create some conscious anti-suggestion techiques (dare I say TECHNOLOGY?).

In another thread, ON2LF said:

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The twistedness in this cult stuff blows the circuits in my brain.....it's hard for me to think about....I try to make sense of something that is non-sense.)

I know that some NLP hypnosis techniques are used, as well as meditative, regression and just plain exhaustion.

I am curious from a psychological point of view and I think it would be helpful to everyone to discuss it.

-Mags

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Maggie
I'd like to explore this with a new topic. Maybe if we can get the PROCESS out into the open, then people will recognize it when they see it and (hopefully) work to create some conscious anti-suggestion techiques (dare I say TECHNOLOGY?).

In another thread, ON2LF said:

Quote

The twistedness in this cult stuff blows the circuits in my brain.....it's hard for me to think about....I try to make sense of something that is non-sense.)

I know that some NLP hypnosis techniques are used, as well as meditative, regression and just plain exhaustion.

I am curious from a psychological point of view and I think it would be helpful to everyone to discuss it.

-Mags

Well, when you are exhausted from 4 hours of sleep, haven't eaten much all day because you aren't given enough time to eat, and are told to eat with your "group", and to get back in time for the next session or else "acknowledge" that you were "out of integrity" and "late", and then the instructor alternates between humiliating you in front of 200 people, and then speaking in a loud booming voice about humanity's foibles - one could begin to see how even a psychologically adept/intelligent individual could begin to be manipulated into volunteering for unpaid labor, recruiting friends and family into coercive organizations, and opening up those checkbooks.........

And that's probably the biggest trap - being bullied in front of your peers. I wonder how effective Landmark would be if it had to impart its Technology on a one-to-one basis. I'm sure there would still be a few individuals (regardless of intellectual or emotional integrity) who would lap it up like a hungry dog. But I suppose that's the whole deal with Large Group Awareness Training.

Unfortunately, as the great and not-so-great literature/film of the world has shown us, breaking free of mass hysteria is reserved for the few 'exceptional' individuals who can see the messy hysteria for what it is. Fortunately, the strength of these few can assist others to go down the same path. Of course, it can happen in reverse, as it so often does with Landmark ...

I agree about the belittling.. but if someone did it in an uncontrolled setting, you'd just naturally say "Screw You" and walk away.

I'm reading "The Sociopath Next Door" (from a recommendation on this forum) and the most enlightening is the section about how we naturally obey the person with "authority" -- how we will question ourselves before we question him/her.

They also talk about how ungodly acts are committed all in the name of "changing the world for good." Look at the Nazis.

I think a lot of it also has to do with the self-confidence of the forum leader and the confidence that he/she builds. Remember, "con man" is short for "confidence man." In order to con you, they have to gain your confidence and admiration.

I totally agree. Authority has that affect on most of us, but I also think it's relative. For instance, being stopped by the police for a licence check or random breath test certainly makes me cooperative (even with the knowledge in the back of my head that they're only public servants). It brings on a kind of heightened self-consciousness and in that state it's more likely I'll comply to the so-called Authority. However, in another situation, like being a student at school, I tend to relax more. I feel more in control around the teachers (authority). I certainly cooperate and comply to their demands (assignments), but there isn't the same level of submission.

I agree that the situation and/or environment has to be controlled. In some way, I think it also has to be intimidating, like a Forum hall, or a police station, or a university...And it certainly has much to do about confidence. It's about confidence and zeal and the ability to deliver (with conviction). Sounds like Pop Music! And I suppose it kind of is...

I don't think lgats blow the circuits in the brain as much as they re-route the circuits. The re-routing of circuits begins with the new teachings (even when they're false) and in the verbally repetitive presentation of those teachings. Repetition ensures learning for most people. When the repetition alone will not suffice, there is always the old stand-by behavioral therapy methods. Reinforcing the desired behaviors (ie: agreement with the new doctrines, recruitment, promotion of the org. etc..) with praise, compliments, lovebombing etc , and removing reinforcement for the undesired behaviors like questioning the leader, not doing homework, keeping non-conformists in your life by withdrawing previously expressed approval, affection, praise etc.. and replacing those affirmations with criticism, threats, greater demands on behavior modification etc. This new learning has potential to cause the brain to discard some synapses while forming new ones. New circuitry.
Learning appears to have that effect on the brain and would include the rigorous 'learning' experiences in lgat courses.
So, the circuits don't really get blown, just rearranged, discontinued or developed to accomodate new learning.
Scary to think of how a person's neuropsychological sytems might be affected over a period of time, in an lgat that demands its members be continuously enrolled on one course or another. The circuits of the brain must resemble a mass of confused electrical circuits after the first course alone.

I don't think any weekend's teaching can physically effect the brain in any significant way.

Give it time and the brain will return to how it was before.

I don't mean that LGATs aren't harmful, but mercifully nothing is permanently damaged in the (physical) brain, given time (and/or counselling) it will heal.

Maybe if children are brought up in a cult, they will seem to be wired up in a different way to the average child.

But there will be no physical damage to an adult brain by a weekend's training, unless a neurotoxic chemical or something is given :)

Maybe it's because of this notion of striving for 'wholeness'. Worthy enough aspiration, but it seems a large percentage of us 'want it now!'.

If you're taught or persuaded to think you're not whole, then all these cracks and holes start appearing. Fair enough, in some cases, to yearn for more understanding, a clearer picture, an increased level of contentedness.

So, watch out for the Hole-mongers, cos' they're selling nothing but the space in between... 8)

Repetition is the key. It's like learning to play the guitar. You keep at it through joy and frustration. Gradually, week after week, working through your callouses, the pain in your fingers, saying, 'This is good. This is valuable' in chorus with, 'This is shit. I don't think I can do it', but you persist and have a breakthrough because, without you knowing it, you've trained your reflex memory. What was hard labour is now automatic...you can close your eyes, even...think about other things...

And, yeah, it's easy to let time heal any potential damage caused by learning to play the guitar. The callouses heal, but it will always be there in some distant part of your 'brain'.

How big is the brain?

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kath
I don't think any weekend's teaching can physically effect the brain in any significant way.

Give it time and the brain will return to how it was before.

This is something I've been thinking about. Just how rearranged does the brain get? Does the implanted perspective really wear off over time? I wonder if some of it doesn't stick.

I know for myself, first I had to become [u:0c230562b7]aware[/u:0c230562b7] of the scam, then I began [u:0c230562b7]educating[/u:0c230562b7] myself, then make conscious attempts (still doing it) to UNDO/COUNTER the implanted crap. The self re-programming has been confusing, as I question what to undo/counter/reprogram.

It seems to me that once one's perspective has been radically altered, the "new view" colors the attempts to undo the new view. A catch-22.

How is it for people who never make it to the first step, i.e. awareness of the scam? Who never know what happened? How deep into the self do LGATS go?

I think there will always be people who can't/won't make it passed Step One on the road to awareness...someone keeps these things going...it seems our need to surrender chunks of ourselves to doctrines outside ourselves is very strong...I personally think our culture favours the notion that faith is 'best' served towards an external entity or belief, when, in fact, it serves us 'better' to direct it inward as a faith in ourselves.