>Again, it seems that your specific intention is to defend Landmark.
>Your posts eventually come to that without fail.

rrmoderator -- We've already been through this. See the topic I started, "Landmark Manipulation Techniques" for numerous counter-examples. And lately I've mostly been defending myself against unfair attacks.

I will criticize Landmark and I will defend Landmark. Unless this forum is a kangaroo court in which no defense of Landmark nor any person defending Landmark is tolerated--which is sometimes my impression--then I presume I'm allowed to defend Landmark as long as I abide by the rules of this forum.

Make no mistake--some of the time I will defend Landmark. If that is not allowed here, please make that explicit. Otherwise drop this repetitive commentary that I am defending Landmark.

As to your weblinks--you posted the identical set of links in "Landmark Manipulation Techniques" and I responded there.

LoriS -- First, thank you for a vivid, specific and heartfelt post. I don't doubt what you say and I'm sorry for the pain and loss you have experienced.

As I have said, I'm glad this site exists. LGATs, including Landmark, have hurt people; I don't discount that. I came out of est, not damaged, but definitely pissed off by the contradictions and craziness. I never saw anything as drastic as you describe, but I've read enough here and elsewhere to know that those things happen.

However, I'm also a realist. Humans and human organizations make mistakes and others suffer. I can think of *no* organization for which this is not true. The United States is an amazing country for its contributions to the world and in the quality of life and standard of living it provides its citizens. But we are far from perfect and we have done some dreadful things and others have suffered. Does this mean one must reject everything about the United States?

Landmark has benefited many people; it's not all smoke and mirrors. My friend tells me that Landmark saved her marriage. I believe her. My insomnia has improved considerably and I feel renewed energy and direction in my life. It's worth it to me. We'll see how that goes.

I'm not sure what sort of detail you want. I agree that LGATs have risks and people have been hurt. I don't think, in the case of Landmark, that the numbers are anywhere in the vicinity of the 15% seeking treatment for serious mental disturbance that you mention. I suspect those reactions are rare.

I would also mention that Landmark has responded to criticism. The Forum and the Advanced Course contain much of the same material as the est Training, but the confrontational intensity has been toned down considerably. Bringing guests is now barely mentioned in the graduate seminars. My impression is that Landmark is working to trim away the negative parts of its programs while preserving the positive aspects.

Jack

Anyone following this exchange should note the consistent pattern of JackSF and also compare his answers to those made by Siam, Wolfy and Rookie.

You will readily recognize many of the same apologies and very similar answers regarding criticism of Landmark.

He never really addresses an obvious core issue. That is, the problems produced at Landmark are due to the process not individuals or acceptable risk.

The so-called "technology" devised by Erhard is the reason people have been damaged.

Jack then goes on to offer anecdotal evidence without any meaningful proof as previously linked in my last post.

He essentially ignores this information.

This is called "denial" or obfuscation.

rrmoderator: Consistent pattern noted. I give up.

gc4062: When my loved one attended his weekend, there was a guy in the parking lot with a can asking for donations from the other particpants to pay for his courses. They were also selling mixed CD's to raise funds for course attendance. When one spouse of a particpant pointed out there might be royalty issues to consider in this activity, she was told that since they were "selling" the case the cd came in, not the cd itself they addressed that issue. I love all that authentic integrity.

After my honey's weekend, the group of participants set up a yahoo group and the emails were flying as well as phone calls all damn day. One of the things discussed was a certain member who said that he wasn't going to the next level because of cost, and the other group members were all agreeing to chip in to pay for it. Also, when he first got home, he had a list of people he was going to "inspire" to attend, including a couple he intended on paying the way for.

The girl in the ER story was blasted because "she could control it if she wanted". They screamed at her for half and hour about breaking her commitment, when her life was potentially in danger. She apparently refused admission to the hospital after being stabilized to return to the trainig room.

I spoke with a "Harmonite" about my honey's condition when he came home (manic episode) and while at first this guy seemed very concerned, he came back a day or so later with the comment that my honey "must still be hanging on to something he should have let go of in the training, and he needs to go back for summit so he can let go of it. "

As far as relationships, of the several dozen people I was acquanted with I think maybe about half who were in relationships split. The most glaring one was a couple who's husband went, and the wife was very against it. I was told he gave her a choice between attending Harmony or their marriage ending, and she relented and attended. She left him in the middle of her "training" series and now they are divorcing at her insistence. They were such nice people.

Recently I was told that the person who introduced us all to Harmony, who credited it both with saving his now wonderful marriage and his success in business, has left his wife and five children with no income and she has no idea where he is. We found out many months ago that he is a fraud and had taken us all for a ride, but there are still several members of the original group (most all of whom have been to Harmony now) who remain very loyal to him. The glaring inconsistencies don't seem very obvious to these people. They are true believers.

I can't speak for drug use, as I know of no one who used in the group I was associated with, and I've kept no contact with the Harmonites since our break with this group. I would suppose that keeping up with the lie of "transformation" might push someone to begin using drugs.

I for one dont think it is the least bit Coincidental or tragic that Landmark's headquarters were located in the world trade towers. In truth LGATs are no different from Nazism with the one exception, you dont have to pass genetic prerequisits, this time membership is a choice, or is it?

Anyone who currently bears the 'mark' of the beast feels that their life has been improved in some respect or another. Which implicitly means that before the transformation their life was not as good as it is now. Often times a defiant claim of feeling more complete or whole or in touch with their higher self etc or even going so far as to claim that the process is some how evolutionary in nature. Elsewhere on this board someone is claiming that LGAT's are like a phase in human evolution that a human has to elect to undergo. Implicitly again he is claiming that anyone who has not attended this type of seminar is less evolved than someone who has. Starting to see a trend here?

Its the all consuming euphoric delusion of superiority over another person. It is Nazism reborn.

Check out a Movie called 'The Boondock Saints"

My friend said that the climax of the AC was standing up and proclaiming what she wanted (I'm sure there's a term for it that I'm not remembering). She said her desire was for "community."

Thanks for all the info.

-Valerie

Quote
gc4062

Community is hammered into your head with about the same force as dropping a 10 ton weight from 12 stories up at first in the advanced course, and is drilled in even deeper in further programs. It's like a computer virus, once it gets in there, it runs rampant.

... Another group I found heavy recruitment taking place inside of was the local gay and lesbian community. In some cities they are marginalized, and they were the perfect target for the salespeople to hit upon. Come and experience a community where you are accepted for who you are being not what you do, etc. ...

Setting up the room, control over sound, light and environment--very interesting.

[www.u.arizona.edu]

-val