What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: December 08, 2003 02:22PM
I never confused you for one moment Jack.
Your posts are well thought out.
I really enjoy the paths you take.
Actually, Jack, I might know you.:eek:
I may even be working in the center where you are. :cool:
And if you know your tech well enough, I do know you and the way you think.
The premise of LEC philosophy being that we are human machines and are all built the same way and can be affected using the same tools.
Your posts are well thought out.
I really enjoy the paths you take.
Quote
JackSF
>
<snip>
You confused me for a bit ...
<snip>
You don't know me or the way I think.
Actually, Jack, I might know you.:eek:
I may even be working in the center where you are. :cool:
And if you know your tech well enough, I do know you and the way you think.
The premise of LEC philosophy being that we are human machines and are all built the same way and can be affected using the same tools.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: December 08, 2003 04:30PM
Jack,
I've been pointing to something fundamental to the thread here and all you can hear is a personal discussion.
Notice that.
You looked at "wouldn't dare to ask" and "grand permission" and you saw the paradox.
It's not about you, Jack.
It's not about quoting Whitman.
Or being right, on or off the hook or naive.
It's about what has been done to you and you unknowingly carry on.
The mind virus lives.
No one here is attacking you or harassing you. No one.
Everyone here would like you to have your thought processes free from anyone elses ulterior motives.
Instead of you investigating the origins and the weight of the paradox, the meme makes room for it in your thought processes. It's akin to trojan and a backdoor. When you "make room" for the paradox, it begins to own you.
Then it has you feel attacked personally. It is the meme that is provoked.
The meme uses you without your knowledge.
The meme uses you without your knowledge.
The meme uses you without your knowledge.
We knew this at LEC.
We supplanted our grads' own personal "conversations" with ours. Your motivation or world view gets shifted to ours.
There is more to this than meets the eye.
This is a good thread if you want to explore further.
I've been pointing to something fundamental to the thread here and all you can hear is a personal discussion.
Notice that.
You looked at "wouldn't dare to ask" and "grand permission" and you saw the paradox.
It's not about you, Jack.
It's not about quoting Whitman.
Or being right, on or off the hook or naive.
It's about what has been done to you and you unknowingly carry on.
The mind virus lives.
No one here is attacking you or harassing you. No one.
Everyone here would like you to have your thought processes free from anyone elses ulterior motives.
Instead of you investigating the origins and the weight of the paradox, the meme makes room for it in your thought processes. It's akin to trojan and a backdoor. When you "make room" for the paradox, it begins to own you.
Then it has you feel attacked personally. It is the meme that is provoked.
The meme uses you without your knowledge.
The meme uses you without your knowledge.
The meme uses you without your knowledge.
We knew this at LEC.
We supplanted our grads' own personal "conversations" with ours. Your motivation or world view gets shifted to ours.
There is more to this than meets the eye.
This is a good thread if you want to explore further.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
JackSF
()
Date: December 09, 2003 01:30AM
Guy -- As far as I'm concerned, you're just a particularly thuggish version of a Landmark leader telling me the way I am and the way the world is with no support other than your willingness to be abusive. It's the same deflection counter-attack type of manipulation documented in the other thread. I don't like it in Landmark and I don't like it here either.
I would be interested in the specific experiences, conversations, incidents at Landmark that led you to the conclusions you intone above, but I've given up on you as a source of information.
>My guess would've been you were on this friend like white on rice,
>but that'd be my guess is all.
...
>What I'm wondering is why you did any recruiting for a profit-driven
>business at all?
Elena -- Thank you for the concession that you don't necessarily what I'm up to or how I do things. I wasn't "all over my friend like white on rice". He's my best friend from a long ways back and we've shared many of our enthusiasms together. est was just another of those things we tried on from each other.
Mostly that was how I was with my other friends too. I've always raved to my friends about the many things that I've found exciting from the novels of Philp K. Dick, to pressure cookers, Apple computers, Joan of Arc, the poetry of Pablo Neruda and so on. Lately I've been a real bug for the music of Gillian Welch. (Try her first album, 'Revival"!) And from my friends I've learned to love James Joyce, physical exercise, the poetry of Frank O'Hara, the writing of Christopher Hitchens, the tv series "Red Dwarf" and so on. To me these exchanges are a joy.
For the record only one of my friends ever did the est Training based on my recommendation. It didn't become a big focus in her life but she still says good things about it.
I would be interested in the specific experiences, conversations, incidents at Landmark that led you to the conclusions you intone above, but I've given up on you as a source of information.
>My guess would've been you were on this friend like white on rice,
>but that'd be my guess is all.
...
>What I'm wondering is why you did any recruiting for a profit-driven
>business at all?
Elena -- Thank you for the concession that you don't necessarily what I'm up to or how I do things. I wasn't "all over my friend like white on rice". He's my best friend from a long ways back and we've shared many of our enthusiasms together. est was just another of those things we tried on from each other.
Mostly that was how I was with my other friends too. I've always raved to my friends about the many things that I've found exciting from the novels of Philp K. Dick, to pressure cookers, Apple computers, Joan of Arc, the poetry of Pablo Neruda and so on. Lately I've been a real bug for the music of Gillian Welch. (Try her first album, 'Revival"!) And from my friends I've learned to love James Joyce, physical exercise, the poetry of Frank O'Hara, the writing of Christopher Hitchens, the tv series "Red Dwarf" and so on. To me these exchanges are a joy.
For the record only one of my friends ever did the est Training based on my recommendation. It didn't become a big focus in her life but she still says good things about it.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: December 09, 2003 03:32PM
u dont seem to understand. everything
us say has no value because u were
empowered in terror.
and u dont get it.
when someone empowers u in terror
u have been empowered.
us say has no value because u were
empowered in terror.
and u dont get it.
when someone empowers u in terror
u have been empowered.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
LoriS
()
Date: December 09, 2003 11:19PM
Jack, Please clarify this:
"This friend didn't like est. I paid for him to do it and he dropped out after the first weekend--twice".
"For the record only one of my friends ever did the est Training based on my recommendation. It didn't become a big focus in her life but she still says good things about it".
That's at least two, right?
"This friend didn't like est. I paid for him to do it and he dropped out after the first weekend--twice".
"For the record only one of my friends ever did the est Training based on my recommendation. It didn't become a big focus in her life but she still says good things about it".
That's at least two, right?
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: December 10, 2003 02:12AM
Jack,
I find it astonishing that you spent six, count 'em, six years involved somehow in est and you didn't figure out the relatively minor and prosaic legitimate or common-sense portion of the program "from which almost anyone could benefit," as some wag pointed out. Perhaps that is why you ask the question at the top of this thread? Is it possible that you, or anyone for that matter, could retain the damaging, bogus, and garbage portions of the "training" and neglect whatever beneficial content there is or was? (Well, yes, actually. Lots and lots of people do.) Your above post is an indication of this. I suggest that you consider the following:
>>Guy -- As far as I'm concerned, you're just a particularly thuggish version of a Landmark leader telling me the way I am and the way the world is with no support other than your willingness to be abusive.>>>
You accuse Guy of thuggishness but you have consorted with PROFESSIONAL emotional and intellectual thugs, meaning those with the conscious intention of taking advantage of you, cheating you, fooling you, and using you. There are many ex and former employees and a mountain of evidence confirming this. The fact that there are or have been employees who are deluded or maintain themselves in a fog of the illusion of good intentions does not obviate this fact. They are taking orders from the exploiters. You have your wires crossed, my friend. If anything, Guy, and the others of us in the same camp, are here to DIS-abuse you or anyone else who has suffered the abuse of the Landmarks of this world. (Maybe not you, personally, Jack, as I am not convinced you are not playing some kind of game or just milking us for information.)
>>It's the same deflection counter-attack type of manipulation documented in the other thread. I don't like it in Landmark and I don't like it here either.>>>
It is, in fact, the opposite. "Saying doesn't make it so," notwithstanding the garbage Werner "aphorisms." And how is it you are so easily manipulated, anyway? The whole purported purpose of the est training was to teach people how not to be manipulated, (at least by those outside the Landmark hierarchy), but become manipulators of others. Perhaps you are a Landmark dropout? Or were UNinvited for some other reason?
>>I would be interested in the specific experiences, conversations, incidents at Landmark that led you to the conclusions you intone above, but I've given up on you as a source of information.>>>
Uhhh....on the one hand you want more information, but on the other hand you completely disregard the person from whom you are seeking the information. Is that what you are saying here?
I dunno, you have a lot of contempt for Landmark critics. Makes me wonder if you are just harvesting information for purposes of fabricating responses for Landmarkers who are exposed to certain information once they leave the confines of the Landmark meeting rooms.
Ellen
I find it astonishing that you spent six, count 'em, six years involved somehow in est and you didn't figure out the relatively minor and prosaic legitimate or common-sense portion of the program "from which almost anyone could benefit," as some wag pointed out. Perhaps that is why you ask the question at the top of this thread? Is it possible that you, or anyone for that matter, could retain the damaging, bogus, and garbage portions of the "training" and neglect whatever beneficial content there is or was? (Well, yes, actually. Lots and lots of people do.) Your above post is an indication of this. I suggest that you consider the following:
>>Guy -- As far as I'm concerned, you're just a particularly thuggish version of a Landmark leader telling me the way I am and the way the world is with no support other than your willingness to be abusive.>>>
You accuse Guy of thuggishness but you have consorted with PROFESSIONAL emotional and intellectual thugs, meaning those with the conscious intention of taking advantage of you, cheating you, fooling you, and using you. There are many ex and former employees and a mountain of evidence confirming this. The fact that there are or have been employees who are deluded or maintain themselves in a fog of the illusion of good intentions does not obviate this fact. They are taking orders from the exploiters. You have your wires crossed, my friend. If anything, Guy, and the others of us in the same camp, are here to DIS-abuse you or anyone else who has suffered the abuse of the Landmarks of this world. (Maybe not you, personally, Jack, as I am not convinced you are not playing some kind of game or just milking us for information.)
>>It's the same deflection counter-attack type of manipulation documented in the other thread. I don't like it in Landmark and I don't like it here either.>>>
It is, in fact, the opposite. "Saying doesn't make it so," notwithstanding the garbage Werner "aphorisms." And how is it you are so easily manipulated, anyway? The whole purported purpose of the est training was to teach people how not to be manipulated, (at least by those outside the Landmark hierarchy), but become manipulators of others. Perhaps you are a Landmark dropout? Or were UNinvited for some other reason?
>>I would be interested in the specific experiences, conversations, incidents at Landmark that led you to the conclusions you intone above, but I've given up on you as a source of information.>>>
Uhhh....on the one hand you want more information, but on the other hand you completely disregard the person from whom you are seeking the information. Is that what you are saying here?
I dunno, you have a lot of contempt for Landmark critics. Makes me wonder if you are just harvesting information for purposes of fabricating responses for Landmarkers who are exposed to certain information once they leave the confines of the Landmark meeting rooms.
Ellen
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: December 11, 2003 05:13PM
Jack,
When critical inquiry is construed to be "thuggish" and questioning contradiction is turned into "willingness to be abusive", we've all lost to the manipulators that wish to silence us.
That's like our politicians calling those that demonstrated against the war in Iraq unpatriotic.
Your posts have shown well enough who is deflecting and using "counter-attack type of manipulation".
Everytime someone comments on your posts, you deflect it.
Just because you wag your finger at me and cry victim, doesn't mean you're not the one doing what you accuse me of.
Just because you talk about what you don't like about LEC, doesn't mean you aren't using their meme delivery program to propagate doubt and misdirection.
Do you really think no one has noticed?
Do you really think we're clueless here?
Your cards are showing.
That type of political corner painting may work elsewhere, but it's not going to fly here.
You get upset with me because I'm telling you what has been happening to you, that you're no different than any one of us, and you don't like it.
You're not untouchable.
None of us are.
You can't silence me, Jack.
You can't silence any of us.
When critical inquiry is construed to be "thuggish" and questioning contradiction is turned into "willingness to be abusive", we've all lost to the manipulators that wish to silence us.
That's like our politicians calling those that demonstrated against the war in Iraq unpatriotic.
Your posts have shown well enough who is deflecting and using "counter-attack type of manipulation".
Everytime someone comments on your posts, you deflect it.
Just because you wag your finger at me and cry victim, doesn't mean you're not the one doing what you accuse me of.
Just because you talk about what you don't like about LEC, doesn't mean you aren't using their meme delivery program to propagate doubt and misdirection.
Do you really think no one has noticed?
Do you really think we're clueless here?
Your cards are showing.
That type of political corner painting may work elsewhere, but it's not going to fly here.
You get upset with me because I'm telling you what has been happening to you, that you're no different than any one of us, and you don't like it.
You're not untouchable.
None of us are.
You can't silence me, Jack.
You can't silence any of us.
Quote
JackSF
Guy -- As far as I'm concerned, you're just a particularly thuggish version of a Landmark leader telling me the way I am and the way the world is with no support other than your willingness to be abusive. It's the same deflection counter-attack type of manipulation documented in the other thread. I don't like it in Landmark and I don't like it here either.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
automaticftp
()
Date: December 12, 2003 02:14AM
JackSF--
If you don't like it, you're always free to leave....
:D :D
Best,
Automatic....FTP
If you don't like it, you're always free to leave....
:D :D
Best,
Automatic....FTP
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
LoriS
()
Date: December 13, 2003 09:41AM
Oh Jaaack?
Shucks. I really wanted you to answer those questions I asked of you.
Hope you pop back in.
Shucks. I really wanted you to answer those questions I asked of you.
Hope you pop back in.
What's Good About Landmark?
Posted by:
Aaron
()
Date: December 16, 2003 02:36AM
I sense that there is a lot of strong emotion around the Forum and Jack is most people's target for that emotion. Everyone needs to remember (or please try to) that we all have free will and we have the ability to hand the keys to our mental well being to anyone or not hand those keys over. Most of us here are adults and I think that is the hardest part for all of us. Once we become an adult it is actually very hard to see the truth anywhere because it comes in so many shades of gray. But we must always make the effort to recognize all things for the good and the bad contained within.
I took the Forum and would never take any further training. But that does not mean that I love it or hate it. I just used the training as another toolbox where I could pick and choose the tools that work for the tasks I need to do and discard those that don't help me. If we discarded everything that had parts that were worthless or bad we probably would have very little of anything in this world.
But I tend to look at life in a pragmatic way. I worry about the things I can control and don't worry about the weather or the end of the universe. I know most of the time I can't even lead the horse to the water let alone make it drink the water. This is the way of life. We gotta use our own free will and seek out what is real and what makes sense to us. It is almost like religion (excuse the analogy), each persons god (if they have one) is much much different from the next person's god. And so goes the experiences from good ole Landmark Forum. There will be some folks who can't say enough good about it and then there will be the exact opposite. My guess is that the majority of people will be somewhere in the middle. They found some things they could use and were pissed about some of the obvious marketing/sales of the process and not so obvious mind control techniques that are used. But ya gotta pick the fruit sometimes and wipe the flys off to eat it.
I took the Forum and would never take any further training. But that does not mean that I love it or hate it. I just used the training as another toolbox where I could pick and choose the tools that work for the tasks I need to do and discard those that don't help me. If we discarded everything that had parts that were worthless or bad we probably would have very little of anything in this world.
But I tend to look at life in a pragmatic way. I worry about the things I can control and don't worry about the weather or the end of the universe. I know most of the time I can't even lead the horse to the water let alone make it drink the water. This is the way of life. We gotta use our own free will and seek out what is real and what makes sense to us. It is almost like religion (excuse the analogy), each persons god (if they have one) is much much different from the next person's god. And so goes the experiences from good ole Landmark Forum. There will be some folks who can't say enough good about it and then there will be the exact opposite. My guess is that the majority of people will be somewhere in the middle. They found some things they could use and were pissed about some of the obvious marketing/sales of the process and not so obvious mind control techniques that are used. But ya gotta pick the fruit sometimes and wipe the flys off to eat it.
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