Unlike Guy, I did not burn down my family, friends, and workplace when I was sharing the Training.

I told everyone about it, and let them know that I would be happy to take them to a guest seminar if they liked, but I didn't push it any further than that. It was a golden rule thing--I knew I wouldn't want to be treated that way and if I was, it would only push me away from est, so I played it much more low-key than the full-blown syndrome recommended at seminars.

After my boyfriends Harmony experience, he seemed convinced he had changed. Used a lot of the same language you did. He wasn't open before, he wasn't honest before, he had a long list of things he "wasn't", aspects of his personality that were hidden, and NOW he was awake and alive for the first time. He said that I had never really known the "real him" that he was just a shell before and now he was alive.

BULL FU$%ING SHIT

The man that went away to Harmony was an intellegent, caring, beautiful human being. The man that came home from Harmony was the same man, but somehow convinced that every thing good about him was somehow to be attributed to his four days at Harmony, and the person he was before was some kind of awful creature he was ashamed of.

It's the ultimate rip off. They stole the credit for everything that HE ALREADY WAS.

I think that was the thing that got to me the most.

Everyone I've talked to who's done Harmony says the same crap. These are people I knew before. The ones that have changed the most are the ones who were really nice sweet people, and now they are screaming maniacs. One woman in particular left her husband, cut off her family, shunned her business partners and started allegedly sleeping with several people who went to Harmony with her.
If you listen to her now, even a stranger would wonder if she were not disturbed. We've talked to her family, they are distraught. The only people she will spend time with now are people who've gone to Harmony.

So Jack, forgive me if I don't quite buy your description of yourself "before" and "after". I don't know quite how they rob the credit for the good in you, but I've seen it done very well.

:rolleyes:

That was clever. I love that combining of the name and the burning down part.

You should write for political campaigns.

Nicely done, that is and then adding how angelic you were. Magnificent! Especially the golden rule.

"Applause"

Please more....

Wait, I gotta get my hipboots on.
;)

LoriS -- You'll notice that I based my post on observations from a friend. This friend didn't like est. I paid for him to do it and he dropped out after the first weekend--twice. Still he was willing to grant that est did some good for me.

I don't think est gave me qualities I didn't have already. But after est I felt more able to let them shine.

Now I know that to say anything good about est or Landmark in this forum is to open yourself to naysaying and abuse, but I still say that I'm glad that I did est. Heck, I'm even glad I did the Forum.

I don't know about Harmony and much of what you say your boyfriend is not what I would say about my experience of est.

Jack,

They *got* your money, again...... Shine without involving fraud. It is possible. No course required. No justification required. No cult required.

Stop with the silencing.

>That was clever. I love that combining of the name and the burning down part.

You confused me for a bit before I got the Guy Fawkes reference.

Actually when I wrote it I was thinking about William S. Burroughs' novel, Junky, in which 'burn down' is slang for when an addict goes to a doctor for prescription meds so much that the doctor won't prescribe them anymore.

You don't know me or the way I think.

Werner Erhard reportedly receives licensing fees for his "technology," which is used by Landmark Education.

It also seems very naive to believe that the corporation run by his brother and many old associates, does not have strong ties to Erhard.

No specific detailed information about the sale of EST has ever been made public to fully clarify this.

Landmark is a for-profit privately owned company. It is a business based upon making profits for its owners by selling courses.

Calling such an enterprise a "community" seems somewhat misleading.

And constantly seperating Est from Landmark, though a clever public relations and apologetic device, falls a bit short of reality.

Est and Landmark are essentionally and expression of the same Erhard "technology" or mass marathon training approach.

Again, the same inherent problems keep coming up over and over again according to recent press reports and complaints, which mirror many of the problems previously exposed through Est.

Jack,

I know of one person who did est, then Harmony, and one who did Harmony and is now heavily involved in Landmark. He states the reason he is doing Landmark is because of the number of courses, because you can take them for years. Which begs the question: when do you get to go out and live your real life?

He has posted a good bit here:

[www.papergame.com]

(Just a warning for those who might want to post on that forum, they only allow warm fuzzies for these things, nothing negative)

Both say that Harmony is more about emotions where Landmark is more about your head. Whatever. Harmony is based very closely on the Lifespring model founded by two lifespring trainers, and follows it almost exactly from what I understand.

Looking at the comments that people make regarding LGATS, (those who say positives) that stand out for me, one is that people are never done. Even when their own courses are finished, they keep going back. Landmark seems to take advantage of that by developing more courses, others by the endless volunteer opportunites that they claim "really are the fourth level of training". You yourself did est, stayed with it for a number of years, from what you write left somewhat disapointed, but now are back in Landmark, with mixed emotions. What is the fix for you? I don't get why you still need it. You seem to recognize the manipulation and other aspects that bother you, why are you still fascinated by it? If you really did benefit from the experience, why aren't you done?

Do you know people who take it too far the way I do? My boyfriend came home from Harmony in the middle of a manic episode, a huge bruise on his chest, raving like a lunatic. I've known at least two marrages end, one come very close, and three or four committed relationships get tossed as soon as one comes back from Harmony. I got hit with the "if you don't go to Harmony, I don't think we can stay together", as have others I know. We got into this mess because of a group of people who mentored each other in business. The one thing we noticed was that if anything, those who when to Harmony had their business suffer, not improve.

I've not seen anything to be happy about from either Harmony or Landmark. It's easy for me to hear the pain in all the ugly stories because I lived it too. When I hear the "success stories" I see through them to the faces of the mindless zombies of the converts I know. I wonder from your standpoint what you think of those who feel their lives were completely torn because of Landmark. I wonder how you calculate the risks for people you recruit. Has anyone you signed up ever finished the forum and made some stupid drastic decisions? Have your own relationships suffered because of the jargon and the reality you create not meshing with the one they are living in?

I know you are trying to see both sides, and if you get upset that it seems you are being attacked for defending LEC, you must understand that the people here generally have been hurt by their experience with these things. I tried really hard to see some good in what my honey had gone through. As much as he'd tried to convince me, I tried to believe. I couldn't convince myself though. I saw nothing in him post Harmony that was even close to anything I wanted in my life.

In the end, it was another of our friends who was about to fly to Utah to attend Harmony that snapped him out of his delusion. He said later that the pain of knowing what they were going to do was greater than the pain of admitting that he was living a lie. And so he began in his words, to "wake up."

It was then that he told me the real truth of what they did to him. I still really don't think I've truely processed it. According to another friend who dropped out after the second level, it gets even worse. That people walk around talking about what an "amazing, wonderful" experience they've had astounds me. That's where the manipulation comes in. They do these terrible things to you and convince you that you like it. Amazing.

So forgive me Jack, because I can't help but think of you as being somewhat deluded because of the manipulation you've been subjected to. If you think you are better off because of it, then so be it. Good for you. But why do you have to keep going back?

First you say:

>>I told everyone about it, and let them know that I would be happy to take them to a guest seminar if they liked, but I didn't push it any further than that. It was a golden rule thing--I knew I wouldn't want to be treated that way and if I was, it would only push me away from est, so I played it much more low-key than the full-blown syndrome recommended at seminars.>>

And then you confess:

>>-- You'll notice that I based my post on observations from a friend. This friend didn't like est. I paid for him to do it and he dropped out after the first weekend--twice. Still he was willing to grant that est did some good for me.>>


You are right as you state that we "don't know you and don't know the way you think." It's a mystery to me, alright. (My guess would've been you were on this friend like white on rice, but that'd be my guess is all.) Some of the "victims" talk about being so intimidated they actually paid their friends' tuition just to escape the disapproval and harrassment of the leaders....What I'm wondering is why you did any recruiting for a profit-driven business at all?




Ellen

>And constantly seperating Est from Landmark, though a clever public
>relations and apologetic device, falls a bit short of reality.

I separate est and Landmark to separate my experiences of twenty years ago and my more recent ones with Landmark. It's not a device. Believe it or not, there are differences. How significant those differences I wouldn't say since I only did the Forum six weeks ago. Since I prefer to work things out for myself, as opposed to taking the words of pro-Landmark people or anti-Landmark people as gospel, that's the way it goes.

>It also seems very naive to believe that the corporation run by his
>brother and many old associates, does not have strong ties to
>Erhard.

For those paying attention to my posts--clearly very few--I said much the same a week ago. I asked gc and Guy whether Werner was really running Landmark behind the scenes, they said yes, I said it makes sense.