>And the other phrase which is a pure deflection in any given
>situation is "you really need to notice who you are being at this
>moment"....
>It's never their fault, it's always about you. Any chance to
>deflect something back on you is always taken.

That is classic. This is dead bang-on to what unnerves me the most in dealing with Landmark.

gc, Guy -- Thanks for answering the Werner question. By the second day of the Advanced Course, I had a very strong hunch that Werner was still running things. Makes sense.

> LEC 2020 docs

Are these the "Transformation: The Genesis of a New Realm of Possibiity" and "The Way the Landmark Forum Works" pieces? I was astonished that on the second day of the Advanced Course they had us memorize those bits and practice repeating them aloud to each other.

Both "are you making him wrong?" and "is there anything you need to say to be complete about ..." are silencers.

They both bend you over for the reaming.

Jack,
Thanks for the "could be".
I think that's a close to "making me right" as I'll get with you, huh?

Seriously folks...the rest of your post is a gem.
Everyone reading should take note of his perceptions here.
In LEC it looks all cozy community like but when someone yells fire, it's every rat for himself.
No depth.
Just shells.
It's hilarious to see everyone modeling Jack/Werner's tones and behaviours.
Even the women. From head flips to hand gestures.
The head rat has no depth nor intimacy, it's looked on as a human weakness.
"Don't get your "humanity" all over me".
With a disgusted look on the face.

"...so many years older", me too Jack.
Me too.
All my friends were alienated from me by then too. By the incessant meme delivery program I was conditioned to carry out, everyone lost trust with me.
No friends, no career, nothing but their f**king meme voices running around in my head.

Quote
JackSF
>You're not going to get the real experience of camaraderie,
>contribution and challenge through LEC. Only a facade that will
>keep you coming back for more.

Could be. One of the my post-est insights was noticing that after six years of continuous participation I did not make a single friend. Now it's true that I don't make friends like a house afire, but in just about every environment where I've been for a couple years or more I've made at least one friend who lasted into the next phase of my life. Not est.

There was always lots of good feelings at seminars or while assisting but nothing lasted outside the environment. I felt like Rip Van Winkle. When I awoke from the dream of a great time drinking with others, there was nobody there and I was just so many years older.

Jack,

LEC 2020 events were the fastest room inductions I ever saw.

They ready to start goose stepping as soon as Steve hit the stage. I think he was a little unnerved by it.

It was appaling to think we sold tickets to the event. Everyone was told it was to be a conversation to determine the future of LEC. Everyone thought they were going to be part of the process.

Good pr.

Everything was "decided" already. The audience was there to swallow only.
Gag!

Quote
JackSF
>And the other phrase which is a pure deflection in any given
>situation is "you really need to notice who you are being at this
>moment"....
>It's never their fault, it's always about you. Any chance to
>deflect something back on you is always taken.

That is classic. This is dead bang-on to what unnerves me the most in dealing with Landmark.

gc, Guy -- Thanks for answering the Werner question. By the second day of the Advanced Course, I had a very strong hunch that Werner was still running things. Makes sense.

> LEC 2020 docs

Are these the "Transformation: The Genesis of a New Realm of Possibiity" and "The Way the Landmark Forum Works" pieces? I was astonished that on the second day of the Advanced Course they had us memorize those bits and practice repeating them aloud to each other.

Quote
Rude Dawg
is it true that rrick ross has no qualifications 2 be a cult expert or buster?

is it true that he has a criminal record?

can any 1 clear this up for me?

Gee doesnt this post clearly illustrate some of the LEC's discrediting tactics. Dont destroy the message destroy the messenger...

Secondly exactly what qualifications does one need to be a 'cult buster'? I have to admit I dont hold a college degree or a six figure job but Im smart enough to know the difference between someone who is dedicated to helping people and someone who is dedicated to helping themselves. You may lack the insight to realize this but your statement implies indirectly that Rick is running his Cult Database to further serve only himself and that he is attacking institutions, organizations and groups that are simply not cults. Then I pose to you the only logical question that I feel you are capable of answering in your defense; What could Rick possibly have to gain by publishing this information about these groups other than to inform others and hopefully guide them away from these dangerous people?

Now I know that question took up more space than the entirety of your original post. And the answer will require far more thought. But I think that anyone, even someone lazy enough to abuse the number 2 instead of the word 'to' in order to convey any point.

As far as a criminal record is concerned I hardly think its relavent in regards to the Landmark Education topic. And as long as Rick isnt a convicted stalker, murderer, rapist or con artist. I dont care if he has a criminal record or not. I have a record, nothing beyond disorderly conduct mind you, and I still think I can be a credible source of information and insight despite my run in with the law.

Just as an observation about screen names: When using a descriptive word as a part of a screen name one should try to more honestly and accurately capture the essence of their being. I'd replace Rude with Dumb...

> LEC 2020

I think I'm getting the picture. LEC 2020 was a big Landmark event about LM's mission plan for where it wants to be in 2020. I'm guessing that "Transformation: The Genesis of a New Realm of Possibility" was unveiled at that time and is now a seed that Landmarkians memorize, recite and refer to, as we did in the Advanced Course.

>Everyone was told it was to be a conversation to determine the
>future of LEC. Everyone thought they were going to be part of the process.
>...
>Everything was "decided" already.

Yes, that's something I have noticed again and again and it's bothered me. How Landmark (more than est) poses everything as an inquiry or conversation--which would otherwise imply that it is open-ended, somewhat spontaneous, two-way communication--but the reality is that whatever is discussed is a done deal, tightly scripted, top-down set of marching orders.

Another Landmark manipulation technique in other words.

gc -- Another great post. I love the detail.

Along a similar line, not only are most of the words in the Landmark conversation scripted but much of the non-verbal part too.

At my Advanced Course there was a senior Leader sitting at the back who was training the the younger guy leading at the front of the room. On occasion the senior guy would stand up and breathe fire into the room. His delivery was so forceful and precise that everyone would stiffen--what was that?!

Now I've listened enough to Werner Erhard tapes that I knew that voice and that delivery. The senior guy had Werner down to a tee--it was like Dana Carvey doing George Bush Sr. This isn't a coincidence. The old est trainers were trained to "recreate" Werner with that degree of precision. The leaders who have come up during Landmark that I've seen don't have that same precision, but that may only be a matter of time.

Quote
JackSF
I'm fascinated by Guy's posts about hypnosis and trance techniques used in Landmark programs. I would love to hear more specifics about this and more general manipulations. I've noticed a fair number myself.

A: [i:23584428b9]When a forum leader says "this is just ONE WAY ONLY of looking at things, it is NOT THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH" he is using a disarming technique so that you will drop your critical thinking. It works. -- Guy quoting gc4062[/i:23584428b9]

B: Not only does it disarm, with that emphasis it's also a classic embedded suggestion pattern. The subconscious does not hear negatives, so what the subconscious hears is, "ONE WAY ONLY...THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH." Most NLP courses teach this technique in their basic practitioner course.

C: Even though the Forum leader warns participants not to believe anything they hear, most come out, sure enough, believing Landmark constructs, like SELF and IDENTITY, as though they were absolute truths or "unmessable-with abstractions" as one leader put it.

From my training in hypnosis I can offer the following opinions/observations for the points above that I've designated A, B and C:

A: Not only is it simultaneously a disarming technique; but it also masquerades as the very politically correct new age mantra that all genuine paths are equal and lead to the same goal.

It may very well be correct, but it could be manipulated by an unscrupulous group that is only masquerading as an "alternative" path to whatever.

Quite an ingenius line in this context, for a controversial group could use that very attitude paradoxically for the very purpose of selling people exclusively on their technologies and ideologies. I.E: Using "tolerance" to engender "intolerance." I find that quite ironic indeed.

In my experience you have to be careful how you criticize LEC and similar to some new age philosophy types. They may be more likely to view the criticizer as "being negative" and "intolerant" and have a knee jerk reaction of resistance rather than risk themselves appearing to be "negative" too.

B: Only hearing positives is to my mind more of an NLP theory. My study was hypnosis, although the old adage of trying NOT to see pink elephants after someone tells you not to may be analogous.
However once something is in the subconscious mind it's quite willing to accept it and behave therefrom. The classic adage in classical hypnosis is that once you have their imagination their will will follow.

Thus creating a sense of security along with techniques that ellicit simultaneously a sense of physical relaxation with mental imagery could OH SO VERY EASILY be subverted into covert mental manipulation, waking hypnosis and even classic hypnosis like good ol' L. Ron was alleged to have inflicted on people like I read in "Bald-Faced Messiah." It may have been "Bare" rather than "Bald." It has been a few years since I read it.

Combine with this congitive dissonance and the communal desire to fit in and be liked and you have quite an ordeal.

Werner clearly realized that the trick is, after all is said and done, to make the customer think that it was their idea all along. Then they might be less likely to blame LEC when the sxxx hits the fan.
And thoughts are not tangible enough to prosecute all too often.

I suspect LEC has not only mastered this but has recruited a legion of volunteers who not only replicate this type of meme but do so without realization of just exactly what they are doing. Truly evil genius. A supply that creates its own demand without overhead or downline expenses. All the money goes straight to the top of the pyramid, yet the dowline people still feel highly compensated. Genius.

However like any computer, if you have the right (knowledge) software, its antivirus setting are high enough and your hard drive's resources aren't overtaxed (you aren't mentally, emotionally and physicall tired/taxed) then you stand a better chance than most of having an effective firewall I would think.

Hopefully we all, collectively, will be able to ascertain just exactly what comprises the anti LEC virus software.

C: The suggestion to "not believe anything you hear," to my mind, insinuates that the speaker covertly wishes to portray him/herself as THE ONLY ONE present who is qualified to be able to discern truth from non. Otherwise why even bother to say such a thing?

Like I said this is from the perspective of a former hypnotist. Others may have alternate views.

SS

To be sure, NLP techniques can be used by the unscrupulous to manipulate people. You could check out Ross Jeffries' Speed Seduction site for an obvious example.

However, basic to the practice of NLP, as taught in all NLP practitioner courses, is the notion of the "outcome frame" -- obtaining a clear, specific statement of what the client wants in the client's terms. When the outcome frame is in place then the NLP techniques are brought into play so the client gets the change the client wants.

And afterwards the NLP practitioner does not tell the client that he or she could further enhance the change by bringing more clients to the practitioner...

I'll be going on an NLP retreat next week. My teacher is actually an old est hand, though you wouldn't know it--he's such a low-key friendly guy. He put together multimedia presentations for Werner way back when and got to see Werner up close and personal on a number of occasions. I'll draw him aside and ask him how he remembers est techniques, especially in the context of NLP and hypnosis.

We're doing a good job fleshing out the semantic manipulations in Landmark. I hope to learn more about the hypnotic, non-verbal techniques too.

sunsetserence -- Welcome!

gc -- Man, you keep punching in great posts! Thanks for the info and the calm. I don't know if I drive you crazy, as I seem to for some in this forum because I still have one foot in the Landmark camp, but I do find your forebearance helpful.

Thanks for the input from both of you. Hopefully many will find our discussions useful even if they only read in anonymous silence.

I might also add this if someone is determined to try and convince someone to NOT do the forum or at least NOT do it anymore there are some persuation techniques desribed in the Leiberman book "Get Anyone to Do Anything."

SS