I'm fascinated by Guy's posts about hypnosis and trance techniques used in Landmark programs. I would love to hear more specifics about this and more general manipulations. I've noticed a fair number myself.

[i:33fcbc89a0]When a forum leader says "this is just ONE WAY ONLY of looking at things, it is NOT THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH" he is using a disarming technique so that you will drop your critical thinking. It works. -- Guy quoting gc4062[/i:33fcbc89a0]

Not only does it disarm, with that emphasis it's also a classic embedded suggestion pattern. The subconscious does not hear negatives, so what the subconscious hears is, "ONE WAY ONLY...THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH." Most NLP courses teach this technique in their basic practitioner course.

Even though the Forum leader warns participants not to believe anything they hear, most come out, sure enough, believing Landmark constructs, like SELF and IDENTITY, as though they were absolute truths or "unmessable-with abstractions" as one leader put it.

Excuse the double-post, but here's the manipulation I disliked the most from my est days. It lives on in Landmark but not so virulently (or so it seems so far). It took me years to catch on to it when I was younger.

psychologizing "ad hominem" -- In the "ad hominem" one attacks the character of the person making an argument, rather than the argument itself.

In the est version, any criticism was met by ignoring the criticism, and instead noting how interesting it was that the critic would make such a criticism and asking where else that pattern showed up in the critic's life. From there it could escalate into a full-scale probe/attack on the critic's psychology. If the critic persisted, then the attack would shift to the critic's need to be right and make others wrong.

In any case the original criticism would be forgotten.

You said:

>>I'm fascinated by Guy's posts about hypnosis and trance techniques used in Landmark programs. I would love to hear more specifics about this and more general manipulations. I've noticed a fair number myself.>>



Which other ones did you notice? There are 20 or 30 or so.....
Have you not seen Dick Sutphen's piece?



>>When a forum leader says "this is just ONE WAY ONLY of looking at things, it is NOT THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH" he is using a disarming technique so that you will drop your critical thinking. It works. -- Guy quoting gc4062

Not only does it disarm, with that emphasis it's also a classic embedded suggestion pattern. The subconscious does not hear negatives, so what the subconscious hears is, "ONE WAY ONLY...THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH." Most NLP courses teach this technique in their basic practitioner course.>>



If you had know you would be subjected to hypnotic
or trance induction in the est training, would you have
signed up anyway? Was your interest in NLP coincidental
or did it have something to do with Landmark? What do
you think of the fact that they do not reveal that there
is hypnosis involved. Or have they started disclosing
that?


>>Even though the Forum leader warns participants not to believe anything they hear, most come out, sure enough, believing Landmark constructs, like SELF and IDENTITY, as though they were absolute truths or "unmessable-with abstractions" as one leader put it.>>


What are the Landmark contructs of SELF and IDENTITY?
Could you elaborate please?




Ellen

elena -- Yes, I know Dick Sutphen's page from way back. It's great. I'm a big fan of subliminal advertising and Sutphen is one of the few people who'll talk about it.

As to what other Landmark techniques I noticed -- not as many as I would like! To tell the truth, I went under pretty dam* fast and they got to me. I was horrified and tickled. I thought I had had my shots and was immune. Partly I want to go back to see if I can stay awake enough to watch what the magician is doing instead of where he is pointing

I'm not that upset that they use techniques. I've done a lot of NLP courses and a basic NLP message is that human beings are in different trances most of the time anyway and performing hypnosis on each other constantly.

For me the question is more what Landmark is using their influence for. gc and guy may correct me, but I got the impression that Landmark is basically sincere (er...authentic) about transforming the world in a positive way, though they still seem to collapse Landmark and transformation together more than I like.

gc,

I love hearing your inside view on this stuff!

Quote

They are also the same people who constantly scan the net for information like you see posted here, and run back to report on it.

Hmm...it wouldn't be hard for Landmark to figure out who I am from JackSF, not to mention the Yahoo group where I've been very open about my concerns about the cult and cult-like aspects of Landmark. I'll be curious to see if there are repercussions.

I'm playing it open partly because that's the way I like to live and partly to see how the Landmark world reacts. I must say that some people in the Yahoo group have been very straightforward and thoughtful in their responses to me.

For all my concerns, there is much that I like about Landmark, and particularly about the people I've met there. My happy ending would be for Landmark to be one of the communities in my life where I can experience camaraderie, contribution and challenge. However, the price for that may be too high.

I could not yet find the U R Being Manipulated site

but did find a collection of other items worth investigating. I included a citation for Dick Sutphen's very detailed article listing various methods of manipulation.

[members.aol.com]

A Discussion of The Delphi Technique

[www.etherzone.com]

General Overview of the Social Psychology of Manipulation

[216.239.57.104]

Dick Stuphen’s Battle For Your Mind

[216.239.57.104]

The most obvious hypnotic technique I notice being used at Landmark is the vague, confusing language that causes the mind to slip its clutch and spin freely for several seconds, leaving the listener in a mild trance state.

My all-time favorite example is from a Werner tape in which he talked about "taking a stand that you are the stand you take" or "merely living in the concept of it." I had to listen to that section of the tape over and over again until I could remember what he said after he said it. While trying to cope with the recursiveness of "taking a stand that you are the stand you take", my mind would just go somewhere else.

WAKE UP! Just in case you just went somewhere else :-)

After attending the Advanced Course that phrase actually means something...or seems to mean something. One of the Landmark hooks for me is that I find their artfulness fascinating.

"One of the Landmark hooks for me is that I find their artfulness fascinating."

BOING!!!

That's like a fish with a fascination for fishermen and their techniques.

You're not going to get the real experience of camaraderie, contribution and challenge through LEC. Only a facade that will keep you coming back for more.

If you involve yourself in your real community, i.e. the one you live in, you will find real opportunities for all those fulfilling things that you've been yearning for.
You'll just have to do it without the trance induction.
If you do that, you will never get ripped off from the satisfaction.

You said:

>>The most obvious hypnotic technique I notice being used at Landmark is the vague, confusing language that causes the mind to slip its clutch and spin freely for several seconds, leaving the listener in a mild trance state.

My all-time favorite example is from a Werner tape in which he talked about "taking a stand that you are the stand you take" or "merely living in the concept of it." I had to listen to that section of the tape over and over again until I could remember what he said after he said it. While trying to cope with the recursiveness of "taking a stand that you are the stand you take", my mind would just go somewhere else.>>>



Referred to as "cognitive dissonance" in the bizzzz...

It's much easier to sneak up on someone who is confused.

Also, you might call the vague, confusing language "meaningless," but what most of it is is so vague that you, the listener, has to supply the meaning, and so are likely to hear whatever you want to hear or make it mean whatever you want it to mean. Politicians pretty much all play this game. And it is a game, to them. They know the audience will fill in whatever meaning is important to them.



Ellen

Excellent links Corboy.

The opsgreen gets a little "agenda-ish",
but it's tech info is good.