Yes, that's the really tragic thing about the whole "self-improvement," "self-awareness" cults. They make you worse. And more desperate. And more likely to return to them over and over again for sustenance. They know this. That's how they design the things.

And like Amway and Mary Kay and all the other "MLMs," they prey on those "between jobs," with few options and little imagination who really WANT to believe that they can make a go of it and will work their little hearts out peddling expensive cosmetics or home products -- people who mostly wake up after a couple of years who have lost financial ground and precious time they might have devoted to something with more promise.

They are parasites of the worst sort and thieves. Mostly, the guys at the top are the only ones who benefit.


Ellen

Quote
elena
I think there may be some message implanted, under hypnosis or deep suggestion, that sounds something like "it's a dog-eat-dog world," or "it's a jungle out there," or "get before you're gotten."

I think that's it, Ellen. When I tell my Landmark friends that I object to the way Landmark people use every trick at their disposal to get someone into the Forum, they say "We are always enrolling. You're trying to enroll me right now."
And when I object that their course fees go to a million dollar fund for lawyers to attack and silence any critic, they say "Every business uses the legal system to defend itself."
Once someone is convinced (by power-hungry con artists) that everyone at heart is a manipulating con artist and that every business is naturally power-hungry, what left to appeal to someone's sense of decency? This is what becomes of my "liberal", "peace loving" friends when seduced by the Landmark vision.

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
I agree. And I suspect that for many people Landmark and other LGATs is a kind of last hope - the answer to all their suffering.

I liken the Landmark experience to childhood trauma but did not intend to imply that attendees to the forum ARE in fact childhood trauma survivors. In fact, I disagree with you. I think a large proportion of attendees to the forum are coerced to go along, are ill-informed about what will take place, and most have the rug of social congruity ripped out from under them once they have been unwittingly lured into the Landmark den.

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
Most people have issues (wounds), large and small, and it's part of the human experience to deal with these. Unfortunately, corporations like Landmark sell their 'snake oil' with the 99.99% guarantee it will heal all their wounds...and guess what? All you have to do is believe in the doctrine (snake oil), which, funnily enough, has always been in line with your own personal doctrine of denial.

And let's make it clear that there is no evidence that attendees of the Landmark forum are "in denial" or "running rackets", Jack. And when you refer to "personal doctrines of denial", perhaps you mean, "wide and varied survival techniques" employed by individuals in wide and varying ways. Let's be careful to avoid the implication that anyone who attends the forum has a "racket".

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
Problem is, the wound just gets deeper and more infested, like trying to dress a rotting corpse in a designer outfit...at least that's how it seems to me.

Not necessarily. The problem with the forum is that everyone has to deal with their individual situations according to forum rules and in forum time. The way individuals chose to deal with their personal situations is up to them, in their own time, on their own terms. Whatever way these individuals chose to deal with their situations should be looked at as a path of individual strength. The implication that people are ruining themselves with denial, rackets, deepening wounds, isn't helpful, right?

Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
So, yes, I agree that a time will come when many Landmarkians will realise the futility of their doctrine. But I do think that those 'sad' individuals who pin their hopes on this last, divine drop of 'snake oil' to remedy their ills are going to suffer greatly before they wake up.

People who attend Landmark, as a lark or as a desperate measure to cope, or even those who attend as a dupe to the nefarious ways of the organisation, regardless of the reasons they came to attend the forum, they shouldn't be looked at as "sad". I just want to avoid the implication that pre-forum, people are sad with deep wounds, and post-forum, people are happy and dynamic...

Just didn't want my post miscontrued. Bye now.

Upsidedownnewspaper wrote:

Quote

I liken the Landmark experience to childhood trauma but did not intend to imply that attendees to the forum ARE in fact childhood trauma survivors. In fact, I disagree with you. I think a large proportion of attendees to the forum are coerced to go along, are ill-informed about what will take place, and most have the rug of social congruity ripped out from under them once they have been unwittingly lured into the Landmark den.

I had no intention of putting words in your mouth. I understood that 'childhood trauma' was used as a metaphor. And using that metaphor, for me, didn't imply 'survivors' attending Landmark. That's why I personally believe many of our actions and reactions are motivated by a 'personal doctrine of denial'. It may be a racket, but that's irrelevant in my view, because it seems those least likely to want to deal with their 'rackets' are drawn to Landmark and other quick fixes. They're just told the obvious and turn it into a revelation - new words for old ideas, I suppose.

I agree, if I may, that many who attend the 'forum' are coerced or, like me, curious. But as I stated, too many converts go along without knowing at least some of the background of EST/Landmark, etc.

Quote

And let's make it clear that there is no evidence that attendees of the Landmark forum are "in denial" or "running rackets", Jack. And when you refer to "personal doctrines of denial", perhaps you mean, "wide and varied survival techniques" employed by individuals in wide and varying ways. Let's be careful to avoid the implication that anyone who attends the forum has a "racket".

Okay, so this is where I have to disagree with you. From my experience, there is emphasis placed on the idea that attendees and outsiders are, more or less, obsessed by their rackets. It seems to me that once they convince you that 'they' have the remedy, you won't look back to giving them large sums of cash and trying to rope in as many people as possible.

Again, personally speaking, I think denial is integral to being human. Some of it is healthy (not having that last drink, not placing yourself in harm's way, etc.) and some of it is unhealthy (allowing an abusive relationship to continue, etc.). I agree that we do have 'wide and varying survival techniques' of dealing with many aspects of the human condition and, sometimes, it means doing things we might regret later on, such as, joining Landmark, taking drugs, expressing our anger in hurtful ways, etc.

Not all Landmark attendees have rackets (gee, I hate that term/word). But I think most do...but so what?

Quote

Not necessarily. The problem with the forum is that everyone has to deal with their individual situations according to forum rules and in forum time. The way individuals chose to deal with their personal situations is up to them, in their own time, on their own terms. Whatever way these individuals chose to deal with their situations should be looked at as a path of individual strength. The implication that people are ruining themselves with denial, rackets, deepening wounds, isn't helpful, right?

The point I was trying to make was that we all recognise a need to 'better' ourselves. That idea, to me, is pretty straightforward. Most of us will have the foresight to try 'wide and varied' ways, such as, reading good books, taking long walks in the bush, being self-expressive, having honest communications with those around us, etc. But most of us (IMO) are wary of remedies that come in too neat a package. Landmark, no doubt, has many postive qualities, and that doesn't concern me. I'm only interested in what I construe as their negative ones - the techniques used to change those around me for the worse - they promise to 'build bridges' and act like 'nutters with TNT'.

Quote

People who attend Landmark, as a lark or as a desperate measure to cope, or even those who attend as a dupe to the nefarious ways of the organisation, regardless of the reasons they came to attend the forum, they shouldn't be looked at as "sad". I just want to avoid the implication that pre-forum, people are sad with deep wounds, and post-forum, people are happy and dynamic...

Now, I'm the first one to admit that sadness (without inverted commas) is normal and healthy. It is not exclusive to the 'sad' souls attending yet another Landmark course. People attend Landmark for a number of reasons, but I believe the common factor is a sense of sadness or discontent in their lives. We all share this discontent (IMO) and some of us will join any group or organisation to alleviate this suffering. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. As a discontent species, we've been joining groups since time began.

I apologise if I implied that pre-forum people are sad with deep wounds and post-forum people are happy and dynamic...that just isn't the case. I have yet to meet a sober Landmarkian who is happy and dynamic. In fact, many who I have associated with, before and after Landmark, are downright miserable, before and after. Tragic.

Elena wrote:[/color:8103e763a3]

Quote

I suspect, or I have wondered anyway, whether there is just not some sort of "defect" or hole in some people's minds that the Landmark stuff plugs into in such a way that it confirms something they may have worried about or wondered about. I think there may be some message implanted, under hypnosis or deep suggestion, that sounds something like "it's a dog-eat-dog world," or "it's a jungle out there," or "get before you're gotten." My hunch is that these "operating assumptions" are somewhat pliable at these deep suggestive levels where Landmark and similar programs do their dirty-work and cause otherwise kind or generous people to become more selfish, more aggressive, and more and suspicious of other's motives.

I think all people have some sort of 'defect' or 'hole' that needs filling. In this context I think 'defect' can also imply a deep curiosity. But it's not only curiosity but that almost indescribable 'hole' in our psyches. That dark place of uncertainy, perhaps. And Landmark (LGATs of all shapes and colours), have found a way in for a large number of paying customers.

Hypnosis or deep suggestion? Perhaps. I think they've just found a cunning system with huge market potential. Many 'social' organisations and religions survive not only because there's a whole lot of us with defects (yearnings) but also because it's their business (they'll do almost anything for that bottom line). I mean, I'm not going to protest against businesses that seem only to be selling advice and guidance, because that would include a great number of groups with no cultish/destructive traits. But I'll certainly have my two cents worth when I feel there's something amiss...which, unfortunately, includes Landmark.

What you say about Landmark (LGATs) turning kind and generous people into selfish, more aggressive and suspicious people is my experience (in a generalised sense). Where there was once lively and generous discussion, I now find closed minds and growing distance. And all that jargon!

It won't be forever :roll: . And I accept that 'who am I to judge', anyway. But I do have questions and concerns, and a curiosity.

It is a 'dog-eat-dog' world out there for many, many people. We're a culture of competitiveness. Every Christmas is a chance to spend even more. But I suspect it will increasingly become a time for less talk and less goodwill.