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skeptic
The trust between two people is abused and exploited so the LGAT kingpin can rake in the dollars.

They exploit YOUR relationships. They know the advantage they have if there is a personal connection. Their business model is all about exploitation and taking advantage of people. That's their game. Worse still, they turn their "followers" into exploiters who take advantage of their friends and family -- little mirrors of themselves, and ultimately, of Werner Erhard. Users, in other words.


Ellen

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elena
They exploit YOUR relationships. They know the advantage they have if there is a personal connection. Their business model is all about exploitation and taking advantage of people. That's their game. Worse still, they turn their "followers" into exploiters who take advantage of their friends and family -- little mirrors of themselves, and ultimately, of Werner Erhard. Users, in other words.
Ellen

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My Ex Girlfriend
, I love what Landmark has help me make possible... if it wasn't for Landmark I'd have had nothing to do with you & lots of other things, it assists & reminds me to open doors & maintain them in a good way.. I have to decide whether I like the person you are without Landmark.

Not that there was any pressure to do Landmark...

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My Ex Girlfriend
, I love what Landmark has help me make possible... if it wasn't for Landmark I'd have had nothing to do with you & lots of other things, it assists & reminds me to open doors & maintain them in a good way.. I have to decide whether I like the person you are without Landmark.

Not that there was any pressure to do Landmark...[/quote]

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mazellan

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elena
They exploit YOUR relationships. They know the advantage they have if there is a personal connection. Their business model is all about exploitation and taking advantage of people. That's their game. Worse still, they turn their "followers" into exploiters who take advantage of their friends and family -- little mirrors of themselves, and ultimately, of Werner Erhard. Users, in other words.
Ellen

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My Ex Girlfriend
, I love what Landmark has help me make possible... if it wasn't for Landmark I'd have had nothing to do with you & lots of other things, it assists & reminds me to open doors & maintain them in a good way.. I have to decide whether I like the person you are without Landmark.

Not that there was any pressure to do Landmark...

Isn't that basic, backward assumption of Landmarkians irritating: that its Landmark the institution, not the "patented technology" nor the philosophy it imparts, but the [i:e0ea21b26c]money-spinning business structure [/i:e0ea21b26c]that constitutes the real catalyst necessary for life-affirming, positive transformation. Without Landmark-the-business-model, one is assumed to be living in the dark, not realising ones full potential, Plato's cave, Parmenides' path of what-is-not, knowing what you didn't know you didn't know, and all that...

...a life in darkness unless you have Landmark the money-spinning business model in your life.

It never occurs to these brilliant Landmark thinkers that a reluctant gentile may have had Landmarkese parents? Or may have already had imparted to him during the course of his childhood all of Landmark's patented technology? Or has enacted his own personal, remarkable technology to live his life to the fullest?

Why are Landmarkians closed to the possibility that there are others in the world who are as capable as Werner and as capable as other Landmarkians SANS Landmark-the-money-spinning-business-model, in living a full, dynamic, and powerful life?

Landmark taught your girlfriend to "open doors and maintain them" but it isn't that that is necessary for your own transformation: more important, apparently, is joining a fray.

And there's the 'catch-22' - tell your trusted friends and they will folow you blindly. A contradiction, if you ask me, unless trust implies having the same level of gullibility.

Funny thing is, those who persuaded me to attend an 'intro' night usually don't hesistate to do some research before buying consumer goods or deciding where they'll spend their holidays. But when it comes to Landmark, they just wandered into the dark...

Sad thing is, because I asked too many 'difficult' and 'irrelevant' questions during and after my 'intro' night, I feel there's a greater distance between us than ever before. I'm sure this is the basic model of many cults: don't associate with anyone (family, friends) unless they accept your views as being absolute.

My problem, if you can call it that, is that I do ask too many questions. I like to debate as much as I like to talk about the weather. I just have trouble accepting absolutes...

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The_Trooper
The forum leader advised against dropping the jargon on non-Landmarkers or using it to win an argument with a fellow Landmarkian.

I can think of some business-motivated reasons for her to have said that to you.

to did slip into the jargon in your post, by the way. something about integrity.

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Jack Oskar Larm
Funny thing is, those who persuaded me to attend an 'intro' night usually don't hesistate to do some research before buying consumer goods or deciding where they'll spend their holidays. But when it comes to Landmark, they just wandered into the dark...

Yeh, I've learned my lesson. I did ask some questions but was not educated enough to know the significance of the answers. I asked if the course was est-related, and was told it was a Lifespring spinoff. I knew nothing about Lifespring, so it had no meaning to me. I was also not using the internet at the time.

On top of being ignorant [i:eb90a23dd5]and[/i:eb90a23dd5] being very pressured (the latter is probably what really got me - I succumbed to the pressure), my friend, herself, was an advertisement. Before the course she was reclusive and depressed. When I saw her during the "intro talk" (i.e. recruitment session), she appeared to have a bunch of friends and appeared very alive and happy. So, in that regard, the "product" she was recommending looked good. I didn't know a thing about LGATs. Re est, I had heard just enough to want to avoid it. I did have a lot of distrust in the beginning but ultimately I was gotten.

One thing that didn't sit right with me was the extensive amount of time the paid recruiter spent trying to talk me into going. I wondered why anyone would try so hard to get someone to pursue personal growth. It was "off". She spent so much time with me because I was very reluctant. She called me several nights during the week between the "intro" and the course and spent long periods of time on the phone.

I had some intuition NOT to do it, and I sure wish I had listened to it.

skeptic

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Before the course she was reclusive and depressed. When I saw her during the "intro talk" (i.e. recruitment session), she appeared to have a bunch of friends and appeared very alive and happy.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I suppose it's normal when people are made to feel they belong to something. But my problem was that it 'felt' like they were suffering a kind of bipolar condition (manic depression?).

How could they generally be 'down' and then suddenly seem 'up' with a bunch of 'strangers'? I mean, I am family! And that gives me many years of gaining their respect and trust. On some level, I felt betrayed.

I suppose there's no guarantee that friends and family are genuine and/or authentic when it comes right down to it...I know that sounds like LEC-talk, but I'm trying to understand their mindset. I really am.

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Jack Oskar Larm

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Before the course she was reclusive and depressed. When I saw her during the "intro talk" (i.e. recruitment session), she appeared to have a bunch of friends and appeared very alive and happy.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I suppose it's normal when people are made to feel they belong to something. But my problem was that it 'felt' like they were suffering a kind of bipolar condition (manic depression?).

How could they generally be 'down' and then suddenly seem 'up' with a bunch of 'strangers'? I mean, I am family! And that gives me many years of gaining their respect and trust. On some level, I felt betrayed.

I suppose there's no guarantee that friends and family are genuine and/or authentic when it comes right down to it...I know that sounds like LEC-talk, but I'm trying to understand their mindset. I really am.

I suspect, or I have wondered anyway, whether there is just not some sort of "defect" or hole in some people's minds that the Landmark stuff plugs into in such a way that it confirms something they may have worried about or wondered about. I think there may be some message implanted, under hypnosis or deep suggestion, that sounds something like "it's a dog-eat-dog world," or "it's a jungle out there," or "get before you're gotten." My hunch is that these "operating assumptions" are somewhat pliable at these deep suggestive levels where Landmark and similar programs do their dirty-work and cause otherwise kind or generous people to become more selfish, more aggressive, and more and suspicious of other's motives.

Just my thought,

Ellen

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elena

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Jack Oskar Larm

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Before the course she was reclusive and depressed. When I saw her during the "intro talk" (i.e. recruitment session), she appeared to have a bunch of friends and appeared very alive and happy.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I suppose it's normal when people are made to feel they belong to something. But my problem was that it 'felt' like they were suffering a kind of bipolar condition (manic depression?).

How could they generally be 'down' and then suddenly seem 'up' with a bunch of 'strangers'? I mean, I am family! And that gives me many years of gaining their respect and trust. On some level, I felt betrayed.

I suppose there's no guarantee that friends and family are genuine and/or authentic when it comes right down to it...I know that sounds like LEC-talk, but I'm trying to understand their mindset. I really am.

I suspect, or I have wondered anyway, whether there is just not some sort of "defect" or hole in some people's minds that the Landmark stuff plugs into in such a way that it confirms something they may have worried about or wondered about. I think there may be some message implanted, under hypnosis or deep suggestion, that sounds something like "it's a dog-eat-dog world," or "it's a jungle out there," or "get before you're gotten." My hunch is that these "operating assumptions" are somewhat pliable at these deep suggestive levels where Landmark and similar programs do their dirty-work and cause otherwise kind or generous people to become more selfish, more aggressive, and more and suspicious of other's motives.

Just my thought,

Ellen

Yes, me too. I've been wondering whether there isn't something fundamentally corrupt about the state of being that Landmark creates. A basically unnaturalness about it.

"Living powerfully" and "knowing what you didn't know you", er, "didn't know", are concepts not unique to Landmark, and as a philosophical exercise, I think the concepts are fair game.

But rendering "meaningless" the formulative and sometimes traumatic experiences of its graduates, and disregarding outright the deep emotional wells that some people plumb under duress, sometimes for the first time, in the course of the forum, rings unnatural to me.

For me, it is analogous to a child that has been abused: despite the very real, overwhelming experience of the child, the abuser negates the experience out-of-hand before the child can process the matter, and then ushers the child out into the world with unattended wounds and a makeshift "psychic-jump" to steer all thoughts away from the trauma...

I can't help but think of Landmark Graduates as re-formed childhood trauma survivors; that the "magic" of Landmark is to create or recreate the childhood trauma experience in its adult students, ushering them into the world with assurances that the "feeling don't matter, keep going, keep going". And I half suspect that somewhere down the line, the mute, automatic drive for dynamic living will putter to a stop and the graduates will be back where they started: with wounds that ARE meaningful and DO need addressing...

I agree. And I suspect that for many people Landmark and other LGATs is a kind of last hope - the answer to all their suffering. Most people have issues (wounds), large and small, and it's part of the human experience to deal with these. Unfortunately, corporations like Landmark sell their 'snake oil' with the 99.99% guarantee it will heal all their wounds...and guess what? All you have to do is believe in the doctrine (snake oil), which, funnily enough, has always been in line with your own personal doctrine of denial.

Problem is, the wound just gets deeper and more infested, like trying to dress a rotting corpse in a designer outfit...at least that's how it seems to me.

So, yes, I agree that a time will come when many Landmarkians will realise the futility of their doctrine. But I do think that those 'sad' individuals who pin their hopes on this last, divine drop of 'snake oil' to remedy their ills are going to suffer greatly before they wake up.