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sametanner
I think the only way to effectively combat them is to get LGATs regulated for use only by Psychiatric proffessionals under strict guidelines.

Do you honestly think that will solve anything? Then they'll just go get psychology degrees and infiltrate the APA to get these methods "approved" and continue to rake in the bucks.

Just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean they won't be greedy or unethical.

And do you distinguish between just a motivational seminar and a dangerous LGAT?

There is no way you will ever legally get the government to shut down LGATs for just medical professionals. People do have a right to free speech.

But you can educate people about the dangers beforehand, which is the bset you can do.

Ultimately, people are responsible for themselves and if they choose out of their free will to attend these things and get involved with them there is not much you can do. Try to educate them as much as you can beforehand, that's the best method of defense. If Landmark gets a reputation as a big joke like Scientology then people will think twice before signing up.

Even then, some people might still choose to go. That's their right. Frankly, I'd still rather see people doing that then becoming a drug addict or finding a worse coping mechanism. (There are worse coping mechanisms!)

Education, not regulation.

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drivingthecar

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sametanner
I think the only way to effectively combat them is to get LGATs regulated for use only by Psychiatric proffessionals under strict guidelines.

Do you honestly think that will solve anything? Then they'll just go get psychology degrees and infiltrate the APA to get these methods "approved" and continue to rake in the bucks.

I concur. Government regulation can often do more harm than good and shield problems. Reporting is a good method of some informed consent. The 60 Minutes expose on Werner, French and Swedish investigative shows all worked quite well to inform the public.

This is similar to the same process the Impact Trainings in Bluffdale, Utah uses on the Friday of its Quest training, although there its called the "Mom and Pop" process. The night before they go through this, they go through a process called "Feedback Arcs", where trainees/staff/facilitators take turns being "honest" to the trainees, meaning each individual has to endure prolonged exposure to insults, unwarrented criticisms and humiliations from 20-30 people. For you, the "fear process" might have been an, albeit weird, walk in the park, but I guarantee to you that there were others re-traumatized and further damaged, perhaps permanently because of it. I've seen it happen on many occasions. Do you even comprehend the amount of mental distress you have to put someone through in order to make them [i:6e6c07a158]vomit[/i:6e6c07a158]? IT INHUMAN, DON'T DOWNPLAY IT JUST BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DO IT! Continue with these trainings and you are [i:6e6c07a158]supporting[/i:6e6c07a158] and [i:6e6c07a158]contributing[/i:6e6c07a158] to this unethical behavior (whether you know it or not). It [i:6e6c07a158]is[/i:6e6c07a158] group dynamic mental conditioning after all. Don't be fooled by the fooled!

You all make interesting and at least somewhat valid arguments about the efficacy of government regulation and accomplishing anything useful. And many people will continue to behave like sheep, feeling incomplete without a shepherd to guide them by the nose.

However, you don't really know what the results will be until you try - if you don't try, you don't get. As for serving as a warning - realistically, how much attention to sites like this is paid by the public at large?? Not a hell of a lot. That may change, who knows. But taking it to the cults, Landmark, etc. sounds a lot better to me than just talking and sharing here and hoping somehow that a lot of others will listen.

Oh, and by the way, do you have any idea how long it takes to get a PhD?? A hell of a long time and $$. plus residency and psychotherapy. That is precisely why these so called "professionals" in groups like Landmark and Miracle of Love usually only have an MSW (Master of Social Welfare or Social Work), not a lot harder to get than a bachelor's degree.

Maybe I won't be successful, maybe it is a "fool's errand" after all, but I intend to try as well as logging on and talking about it.

Funnily enough, back in the 1970s, when Werner Erhard's brother tried to run for office in California, it only took one person to expose him as a "believer" or "follower" or relative of the "est" guru to get him knocked out of the race. He did so poorly they realized that any mention of est or Werner was deadly. Gee, how did they manage to poison the ground so thoroghly way back then, do you think?


Ellen

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elena
Funnily enough, back in the 1970s, when Werner Erhard's brother tried to run for office in California, it only took one person to expose him as a "believer" or "follower" or relative of the "est" guru to get him knocked out of the race. He did so poorly they realized that any mention of est or Werner was deadly. Gee, how did they manage to poison the ground so thoroghly way back then, do you think?


Ellen

BTW, in the late '70's est had connection in the Carter Administration. And The Hunger Project has connections to the U.N. The People's Temple was connected to the San Francisco city government Moscone Administration and had supporters. It's best to have religion and business seperate from government.

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elena
Funnily enough, back in the 1970s, when Werner Erhard's brother tried to run for office in California, it only took one person to expose him as a "believer" or "follower" or relative of the "est" guru to get him knocked out of the race. He did so poorly they realized that any mention of est or Werner was deadly. Gee, how did they manage to poison the ground so thoroghly way back then, do you think?

Yep, non-violent protest can be a shaker. We can't underestimate the power of resistance. I suppose, in some way, we've been conditioned to think that we need more...'weapons of mass destruction'?

Words are cheap, they say, but my pen (keyboard) is my sword. A sword of action; a sword of 'cutting through the crap'. I can only do what I can do, and, I suppose, it could always be a little more. But let's not get fanatical - plenty of them around.

We can't lose hope, even though hope is a hopelessly abstract idea. While I have brain cells and dexterity in my fingers, I will continue this discussion.

So, anyone in for a good poisoning? :twisted:

I was thinking about that poor woman who was telling about her sexual abuse at the Landmark-est Forum, and who then had to be taken to the hospital. Did she have a mental breakdown, or an emotional overload, or some physical problems as a defense against the severe emotional anguish?
Some people collapse when the emotional pain gets to be too great, as their psyche can't take it all at once like that.

What a travesty...you have a person with severe trauma in her, and then some idiot Landmark leader triggers her trauma, so he can get some drama in his seminar, which leads to her hospitalization, and could have ruined this woman's life for a number of years.
For all we know, she could be sedated as we speak.
Hopefully she will realize that these Landmarkian-estholes did this to her, by activating her trauma, without any training or knowledge whatsoever.

That Landmark leader who did that, and encouraged her to "spill her guts" about her sexual abuse like that, should be [b:e79091f530]prosecuted criminally for negligence[/b:e79091f530]. Each Landmark leader who does that to people should be personally sued and held ACCOUNTABLE for their negligence and incompetence, and their abuse of their position of power and trust.

Many people had mental breakdowns after est.
Landmark is really just est, with slight superficial changes.
Many people have mental breakdowns after a Landmark seminar.

Many people would also "puke" during est, like they do at Landmark. Its simple manipulation of people created by Werner Erhard.

What needs to happen is a massive class action lawsuit against Landmark, that does not settle out of court, and forces Landmark into the courtroom, so all the facts about how many settlements they have made over severe damage to people from Werner Erhards abusive methods can come out.

Werner Erhard and his cronies need to be held accountable for their years of abuses and negligence.

It's often difficult for victims to speak out. Landmark and other LGATs employ a kind of 'rape' coercion, but in this case it's like gang rape of the psyche by the roomful. And we all know how difficult it is for victims of this kind to stand up. It would seem that many violent crimes where the victim survives causes the victim to 'accept' or 'deny' the act. They may pull away eventually, but the instances of 'speaking out' are usually rare. This is a view I hold because of the prolonged domestic abuse my family 'accepted' when I was young. And statistics certainly reveal that victims of rape are the least vocal.

And I think many people involved with LGATs are moving from one abuser to another...they have difficulty breaking the cycle.

So, I guess, we can't expect huge results with regard to 'victims' standing up for themselves. We can only hope that this time will come. All we can do is represent the other, more 'rational' side of the debate. But, at this stage, there's no use in 'holding our breaths'.

At least Landmark survivors can find support and discover the numerous others who have been through it, on forums such as this.

Some activists against Landmark have really stuck their necks out, so others now will be able to find a bit more information and support.

Some braved such personal stress to make the France 3 film available online.

One of the worst problems for survivors of abuse is invalidation by the perpetrators and others of their experience. Once they read other's accounts such as these on this forum it must validate them a little and help them feel stronger in themselves.

Some Landmark survivors are at the cutting edge of activism against destructive groups, hopefully they will pave the way for survivors of Landmark and other groups to find their voice :)