hello all....

been reading a bit of the posts and in general have followed much of the controversy throughout the years.

i did the forum 4 years ago, and will finish the last part of their education, the Self Expression and Leadership Program in a few weeks.

my total involvement consists of,

2002 - the forum
2006 - the advanced course
2006 - the SELP.

after this, i consider my education with them complete.

having said that, my experience has never been as bad as some of the others. its unfortunate that others had bad experiences, but i only offer my experience. i've never been bothered with calls, i can use the restrooms at any time, and never had any issue with refusing a request, invitation, or offer.

after doing the forum 4 years ago, i had no intention of ever continuing. After the forum, I felt I got everything I possibly could have imagined and then some out of the forum and did not feel like doing anymore seminars. i was never bothered about it. i was asked few times and simply stuck with my choice and that was it.

what brought my participation back to landmark was a chance encounter with old audio lectures from ALAN WATTS, a philosopher and writer who had a role in bringing eastern/zen philosophy to the west.

after hearing these, i recognized its familiarity instantly and later discovered that alan watts trained and taught werner erhart. at that point, i realized that landmark was really the only convenient way for me to expose myself to a conversation of that kind of nature.

now while many focus on the scientology connection, the forum is more an exposure and conversation about zen than any of the other influences, with much overlap anyways.

i also have witnessed and acknowledge the various spectrum of people's reaction to completing the forum. i have no doubt that people go out and turn the entire conversation into some crusade for convincing others. staff members are not exempt to this sort of behavior.

at the end of the day, i simply see landmark as an exposure to mainly zen philosophies and what life may look like in that context. it is not a solution to anything. The possibilities of what zen and similar philosophies can produce in one’s life are vast, and unfortunately, it is very easy to interpret it as a solution, or quickfix.

all the crazy graduates speaking new words, making people wrong for disagreeing, etc... those are just their reactions to the conversation. As far as the forum leaders go, I believe their motivation is rooted in sharing this level of possibility with people rather than personal profit. it is very easily interpreted as force. as with any large group, organization, or religion that openly stands for something, these controversies will always exist.

controversy aside, my research in zen and buddhism have only reinforced landmark's conversation and play a significant factor in my infinite satisfaction of life. one that i could not have imagined without being exposed to this type of conversation.

thanks

Landmark seems more like "mass marathon training" and has a history of serious problems.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also [www.culteducation.com]

Based upon the complaints received I would not recommend Landmark to anyone under any circumstances.

hi dzigntank,

did landmark also "transform" the attendees to go out and recruit for landmark?

the zen of recruiting, maybe?

skeptic

Dedicated Zen practitioners shudder at the thought of Alan Watts being a teacher of Zen Buddhism. Corboy and I had a conversation on this forum a few years back. I was totally enthralled with Alan Watts, as I read most of his books (he's so easy to read) at the request of my misguided Landmarkian doctor. Alan Watts' name popped up a lot in alternative medicine circles. The following is what Corboy wrote to me on this forum.

"Your comment that many spiritual crooks seem attracted to Alan Watts is quite interesting. I read this comment on him recently: 'Watts lectured about spiritual disciplines. But he never followed a spiritual discipline himself.' He ended his life as an alcoholic who said, 'I dont like myself when I am sober.' Watts played language games using Zen, but he did not submit himself to the Boddhisattava Precepts that real Zen people commit themselves to: the precepts forbid abusing sexuality, forbid use of intoxicants, lying, stealing. You even vow to forgo liberation until all beings are set free with you--Zen is not for your own pleasure. Its about service.

Another red flag: people who follow a mixed salad of traditions, so that you dont know which spiritual 'jurisdiction'(Hindu? Sufi? Buddhist?) they are accountable to in event of a dispute. Many pseudo-teachers claim that a famous guru or teacher has 'encouraged' them to teach, or they're 'inspired' by some tradition. When you check more closely, you learn that they have not put followed the guidelines the tradition requires of its authentic teacher trainees, and they they have NOT received formal 'lineage transmission' from an authentic teacher. It is common for charlatans to manufacture spiritual pedigrees for themselves.

(Note: there's a new breed: teachers who pop up, claiming they have become spontaneously enlightened without having had a teacher, or followed a coherant spiritual practice. Some may write good books, but I would avoid a relationship with them in person.)

People who like to mess with boundaries dislike accountablity and objective guidelines. That is precisely why you've seen so many of them gravitate toward eclecticism, and half baked 'traditions'. This allows them to blur boundaries and keep things fuzzy. They also use these 'fuzzy' teachings to confuse and groom their intended victims. Most of us are in crisis and vulnerable when we seek help, so we are not likely to spot this kind of malfeasance in its early stages.

LGATs k may incorporate elements of Zen, but my guess is they only use the 'language game/reality-is-arbitrary' aspect of Zen. Real Zen, like all genuine Buddhism, requires a balance between wisdom and compassion--which forbids deceit and forbids treating other people like objects. Real Zen is rooted in commitment to the ethical guidelines all Buddhists know and are supposed to follow.

Watts' problem was that he was fascinated by non-dualist Zen philosophy, but did not understand that Zen is just as much a matter of ethics, discipline, and accountablity to lineage. Someone said, '1950s Zen (Watts' form of it) was an intellectual parlor game--you sat around and talked about it. Real Zen is putting your ass on the cushion at 5:30 am and then bringing that practice to the rest of the day.'

Like Zen, Sufism has been misunderstood and exploited by folks in the spiritual glamour business; Sufism is chic these days. Real Sufis are tied to lineages, just as Zen practitioners are. They live quiet lives and keep a low profile. For that reason, Sufis have suffered a fate similar to Native Americans, because their concepts and practices have been appropriated and taken out of their original ethical/community context by hucksters out to make a fast buck.

It takes a lot of background knowledge to trace whether someone's Sufi credentials are genuine, and most of us dont have the time or expertise to do so. It is just as confusing to research Zen and Tibetan Buddhist credentials, so its easy to take somebody's word for it.

If someone says he or she is a Sufi, its good to ask, 'Who is your sheikh? When did he formally credential you to teach, and when's the last time the two of you had a face to face conference or went on retreat?' (If a Taoist, then which teacher or master did they study with?)

The problem is these are the kinds of questions people in life crises do not know to ask.

We need to have a really capable journalist who can write a feature article on 'responsible vs exploitative eclecticism-how to tell the difference'. "

dzigntank, if you have an interest in Buddhism, then maybe you have an interest in the suffering of other beings, notably the suffering being caused at this very moment and many moments in the past that the Landmark legal team is causing using your tuition money.
Awareness of the consequences of your actions is at the core of Buddhism. Does your Landmark training lead you to investigate deeply what they do with your money, or does your Landmark training make you dismiss such thoughts as a racket?

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dzigntank
after this, i consider my education with them complete.

And when a drone volunteer calls offering a new course that's chock full of new [b:8caa396513]technology[/b:8caa396513] which will help you [b:8caa396513]create new possibilities[/b:8caa396513] you'll refuse and not give it a second thought?

Forgive my cynicism but you have it backwards: your education is complete when they say it's complete.

Of course, the most serious problem with Landmark is not the junk-philosophy cobbled together by Werner Erhard. Its just a bunch of junk he picked up over the years.

The real problem is with the pathological ORGANIZATION which is designed to exploit and use people. The way Werner Erhard set up the Landmark Forum makes it automatically weed-out people who are not willing to be utterly compliant to the orders of the Leader the the mass-psychology of the group. If you CHOOSE to take notes, ask questions when YOU CHOOSE to, eat when you are hungry, and CHOOSE to not call people when you are told...you are going to be forced out.
The people who stay are the people who are willing to be followers, and to follow orders, and recruit, recruit, recruit, and work for free like slaves, so more money can be transfered off-shore to "you-know-who", the Wizard Of Oz hiding behind the curtain.

Another problem are the coercive psychological techniques they use to BREAK DOWN PEOPLE'S DEFENCES and independent will. It goes on and on.

So the infantile, nihilistic, and junk-philosophy Werner Erhard peddles inside the Landmark Forum, is really just empty content. He could be "teaching" about Space Aliens, Xenu, or whatever nonsense he could dream up. The "content" is just "filler".
What its really all about is getting people to fit into the Landmark SYSTEM, using peer pressure, and then to coerce and persuade them to bring in new people to spend more money.

Don't be duped by the Red Herring that Landmark is actually teaching something worthwhile! Just read their bogus "syllabus" and its clear they are not teaching anything at all.
If Landmark actually taught anything of value, then there would be White Papers, and research, and analysis. There is nothing.
All there is, is enrolling more people to give Werner Erhard, and his family more MONEY. That's what its all about.

Yep, it's all about MONEY.

Regarding the so-called teachings, it's more wizardry, in that they are packaged such that they APPEAR to be profound and wise and useful, etc., stolen pieces from here, there and everywhere, taken out of context and twisted beyond recognition or usefulness. It's part of the sinister plot to get you to THINK you are getting something of value, all part of the grand plan to turn you into a mindless, recruiting robot (all about money), while YOU think you've achieved enlightenment. Pure trickery and deception. Things are not what they appear to be in an lgat. You pay them and they'll exploit you. What a deal!

All about MONEY, yes it is!!!!!

skeptic

As my mother always says [b:fd82f5460e]"You can't be rational with someone who is irrational."[/b:fd82f5460e]

My belief is that you, [b:fd82f5460e]dzigntank[/b:fd82f5460e], have been been brainwashed by LE. Don't worry, many have been and you are not alone. Someday you will realize it.

Perhaps sent here by Landmark for dispute purposes?

Do they have seeders here?? Hmmm... I see some crabgrass growing.

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grub
Forgive my cynicism but you have it backwards: your education is complete when they say it's complete.

I was just going to say -- it's never complete if you still have $$$$ in your bank account. Suddenly there will be an ADVANCED ADVANCED ULTRA-TRANSFORMATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE HIGHEST OF ENLIGHTENED series. Only $1999.00 !!