Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
mazellan
()
Date: November 19, 2006 04:35PM
Quote
I
I have changed my stance on Landmark. I think it is good for a few people, ineffective for most, and positively dangerous for some. It attracts a lot of people with serious issues, and it is shallow and superficial at best. Some people are missing out on the serious counseling that they need, in order to make a few people very rich. It most definitely is not what you and other Landmark devotees say it is. It exists purely to make as much money out of vulnerable people as it can, in any way it can. I know I have no hope of changing your view of Landmark, I just hope you don't get too hurt by it.
Quote
My Ex Girlfriend
As for your opinions on Landmark, very strong & very full of you being adamant that YOUR opinion is the right one, don't you see the hypocrisy & a little arrogance in that?... (not a criticism, just a question, worth looking into). I do understand how you might feel that way though, I had a similar (more mild, but similar) story for the last 12 years.. Now I wish everyone (well, most people) would do that work, I think if you do it right there is so much goodness in it.
You know, I come to your attitude with compassion... what you don't know is that the Forum is just the very beginning of opening up those tools Landmark best offers, it really is so very worth doing at least the Advanced course, & to actually really be in action whilst doing it... I would guarantee you with all of my integrity & good intentions that you would have a far better perspective from which to judge if you do... It's there that you really get in touch with the games you play with yourself & others in your life... You are missing a really big chunk of input & you are judging based on a huge lack of information... even you must know that that is not an informed opinion... But whatever, just be careful not to poison things for others with such a skewed opinion... personally I believe that point there is your biggest challenge re most things in life... It is the thing that disturbs me most about you... to your credit you clean up our act when you are more formed but mostly it's after the damage is done... My opinion, for what it's worth, is to temper blurting your opinion so strongly as if it were the truth until you do have a good & informed understanding of the issue at hand... Otherwise I think you are great... I think you're great anyway, I know you don't intend to be damaging, don't think you get that it is so damaging... but it is, it has damaged any possible romance between us, it has probably damaged my reputation in this town, it has had many varying impacts on your life & those around you... The thing I love about Landmark is that if you are in action re the integrity issues upheld therein, you are unlikely to slander others in such a way, the practice of tolerance, forgiveness & not making others wrong, let alone taking full responsibility for your own stories & responses is a really valuable practice for the whole human race... I don't think anyone could dispute that... No, I wont be damaged & I am not as damaged as you seem to project.
Have to go now... don't make any of this mean anything... the fact that I spent so much time responding & articulating is evidence of the fact that I actually care about you & believe very strongly that you truly want to become the best of what you can be... we all have a way to go... it's easy to see some of these things from a little distance... Shame we can't do your chart.
Take care & be open, I worry when you close off & get stingy, you're so beautiful when you are tolerant & sit in your possibilities instead of those places like your dad... being opinionated is a place I know, it can be so terribly limiting & cages you & keeps life away... openness & freedom is so liberating.... I'm really practicing it at the moment, it's challenging & so fantastically rewarding... shame you closed the door so dramatically & almost angrily on the Landmark stuff, there's a lot I think you could get from it... I'd love to invite you to come to my creativity seminar one Thursday, maybe there's something you could see... I find it so very delicious & inspiring.
I went to her 'graduation' for a 'date', and initially told her I wasn't interested in doing forum. Then I thought if I want a chance with this women I should do it, so I signed up. From then till I acually did the forum, about 4 weeks, everything was perfect, we had a very intense, loving relationship.
I went into the whole thing with a reasonably open mind, tried to make the most of it. She assisted on the Sunday, and was really disappointed that I didn't 'share' and didn't have the 'breakthroughs' that most of the other participants claimed to have.
From that night onward, she became more distant toward me, and finally ended it 3 weeks later. I kept doing the seminar for a few more weeks, until the brainwashing (with this website's help) wore off.
I hated the constant emphasis on enrolling others, I'd say about 30% of the forum and seminar. I think some of the stuff is really useful, but I can get the same stuff from writers such as Eckhart Tolle and Richard Carlson for $20 a book. And make up my own mind about it.
The above quote is the sort of thing I constantly battled with. I have even had to forward an email to another friend asking her "what the hell does this mean?". I will never again try to have a relationship with a Landmark devotee...
Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
ajinajan
()
Date: November 19, 2006 04:41PM
Quote
It's there that you really get in touch with the games you play with yourself & others in your life... You are missing a really big chunk of input & you are judging based on a huge lack of information... even you must know that that is not an informed opinion... But whatever, just be careful not to poison things for others with such a skewed opinion... personally I believe that point there is your biggest challenge re most things in life... It is the thing that disturbs me most about you...
It would indeed be difficult for someone from outside the group of devotees/followers to understand the above letter, heavily laden with jargon.
But what is even more interesting about the letter is its similarity to L. Ron Hubbard's famous policy of "attack the attacker". Notice how your ex-girlfriend shifts the topic of conversation dramatically: away from a content-debate about the pros/cons of Landmark, to accusations as to your motivations and even your mental health. This is a typical tactic of cults - to attack rather than defend, and assume that critics have crimes or are mentally unstable.
Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 19, 2006 05:40PM
Ouch. This is why LGAT's like Landmark actually work better on "white collar" people who are quite intelligent. Those folks are better able to process all of the languaging, and internalize it. I find it hard to believe that the so-called "blue collar" folks, like police and the like, would really buy into Landmark. Some would, but I think a lot of them would just think its a bunch of bull, and not buy into all of the "private language" jargon.
But this person has completely bought into the linguistic structure created by Werner Erhard. [i:dc84a1fc36](If Landmark can control their words, and the meaning of the words they use, then Landmark can literally control their thoughts).[/i:dc84a1fc36]
I found one line actually quite sad...
Its sad to see someone buy into the garbage philosophy of Werner Erhard, the idea that our relationships, or anything else, actually don't have any intrinsic meaning. Victor Frankl put together a philosophy that allows a person to reprocess the meaning of events, that has a superficial similarity to the above concept. But Frankl did it in a very humanistic and responsible manner. But Werner Erhard is just marketing the ethics and mentality of the sociopath. This way, a guy like Werner Erhard can dump his family, and figuratively or literally "rape and pillage", and hey, nothing means anything so who cares? It works for him, at least in getting more money, sex, and stuff. Its really marketing the destructive mindset of a sociopath, where people are simply an object to be used.
I think often the most trusting and sometimes "decent" folks fall the hardest for the LGAT garbage philosophy, because it doesn't occur to them that someone like Werner Erhard could simply be lying to them, to manipulate them. Whereas a person who is a little more cynical in life, can see pretty fast that someone is trying to con them.
A person who totally buys into the destructive Landmark junk-philosophy hook-line and sinker, is headed for disaster in life. Its too bad that folks didn't have more training in skeptical analysis, so they would not just "believe" and buy-into the types of manipulative garbage philosophies of people like Werner Erhard.
The irony is that Werner teaches them to not perceive themselves as Victims, when in reality Werner is literally victimizing them, and that is what allows Werner to victimize them! It gets rid of those healthy boundaries we are supposed to have to keep ourselves from being used and abused, Werner learned early on he had to smash down that resistance first, or no one would buy what he was selling.
Werner Erhard was/is a very sick and perverse person, who was pretty smart, but mostly just utterly ruthless and sociopathic. Too bad he never ended up where he belongs, in the slammer. But even if he did, he would have kept running his organizations from the inside.
But this person has completely bought into the linguistic structure created by Werner Erhard. [i:dc84a1fc36](If Landmark can control their words, and the meaning of the words they use, then Landmark can literally control their thoughts).[/i:dc84a1fc36]
I found one line actually quite sad...
Quote
... don't make any of this mean anything...
Its sad to see someone buy into the garbage philosophy of Werner Erhard, the idea that our relationships, or anything else, actually don't have any intrinsic meaning. Victor Frankl put together a philosophy that allows a person to reprocess the meaning of events, that has a superficial similarity to the above concept. But Frankl did it in a very humanistic and responsible manner. But Werner Erhard is just marketing the ethics and mentality of the sociopath. This way, a guy like Werner Erhard can dump his family, and figuratively or literally "rape and pillage", and hey, nothing means anything so who cares? It works for him, at least in getting more money, sex, and stuff. Its really marketing the destructive mindset of a sociopath, where people are simply an object to be used.
I think often the most trusting and sometimes "decent" folks fall the hardest for the LGAT garbage philosophy, because it doesn't occur to them that someone like Werner Erhard could simply be lying to them, to manipulate them. Whereas a person who is a little more cynical in life, can see pretty fast that someone is trying to con them.
A person who totally buys into the destructive Landmark junk-philosophy hook-line and sinker, is headed for disaster in life. Its too bad that folks didn't have more training in skeptical analysis, so they would not just "believe" and buy-into the types of manipulative garbage philosophies of people like Werner Erhard.
The irony is that Werner teaches them to not perceive themselves as Victims, when in reality Werner is literally victimizing them, and that is what allows Werner to victimize them! It gets rid of those healthy boundaries we are supposed to have to keep ourselves from being used and abused, Werner learned early on he had to smash down that resistance first, or no one would buy what he was selling.
Werner Erhard was/is a very sick and perverse person, who was pretty smart, but mostly just utterly ruthless and sociopathic. Too bad he never ended up where he belongs, in the slammer. But even if he did, he would have kept running his organizations from the inside.
Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: November 20, 2006 02:59AM
Quote
My Ex Girlfriend
As for your opinions on Landmark, very strong & very full of you being adamant that YOUR opinion is the right one, don't you see the hypocrisy & a little arrogance in that?... (not a criticism, just a question, worth looking into). I do understand how you might feel that way though, I had a similar (more mild, but similar) story for the last 12 years.. Now I wish everyone (well, most people) would do that work, I think if you do it right there is so much goodness in it.
You know, I come to your attitude with compassion... what you don't know is that the Forum is just the very beginning of opening up those tools Landmark best offers, it really is so very worth doing at least the Advanced course, & to actually really be in action whilst doing it... I would guarantee you with all of my integrity & good intentions that you would have a far better perspective from which to judge if you do... It's there that you really get in touch with the games you play with yourself & others in your life... You are missing a really big chunk of input & you are judging based on a huge lack of information... even you must know that that is not an informed opinion... But whatever, just be careful not to poison things for others with such a skewed opinion... personally I believe that point there is your biggest challenge re most things in life... It is the thing that disturbs me most about you... to your credit you clean up our act when you are more formed but mostly it's after the damage is done... My opinion, for what it's worth, is to temper blurting your opinion so strongly as if it were the truth until you do have a good & informed understanding of the issue at hand... Otherwise I think you are great... I think you're great anyway, I know you don't intend to be damaging, don't think you get that it is so damaging... but it is, it has damaged any possible romance between us, it has probably damaged my reputation in this town, it has had many varying impacts on your life & those around you... The thing I love about Landmark is that if you are in action re the integrity issues upheld therein, you are unlikely to slander others in such a way, the practice of tolerance, forgiveness & not making others wrong, let alone taking full responsibility for your own stories & responses is a really valuable practice for the whole human race... I don't think anyone could dispute that... No, I wont be damaged & I am not as damaged as you seem to project.
Have to go now... don't make any of this mean anything... the fact that I spent so much time responding & articulating is evidence of the fact that I actually care about you & believe very strongly that you truly want to become the best of what you can be... we all have a way to go... it's easy to see some of these things from a little distance... Shame we can't do your chart.
Take care & be open, I worry when you close off & get stingy, you're so beautiful when you are tolerant & sit in your possibilities instead of those places like your dad... being opinionated is a place I know, it can be so terribly limiting & cages you & keeps life away... openness & freedom is so liberating.... I'm really practicing it at the moment, it's challenging & so fantastically rewarding... shame you closed the door so dramatically & almost angrily on the Landmark stuff, there's a lot I think you could get from it... I'd love to invite you to come to my creativity seminar one Thursday, maybe there's something you could see... I find it so very delicious & inspiring.
Mazellen,
This is as bad as anything I've ever seen coming out of a Landmarker. Don't know what she was like before but she is well and thoroughly brain-damaged (washed) at this point. The bizarre contradictions, illogical assumptions, use of all the stupid Landmark jargon, and the attempts at emtional blackmail are just atrocious. And she's still trying to get you into the thing, after all that. Just awful. And sad for her "normal" friends and family.
Oh, another thing...
If you didn't know her before she got involved with Landmark, you don't really know her. There is an acute personality change these groups produce in many people. Conway and Siegelman wrote about it thirty years ago in their book "Snapping." The original editions feature "est" on the cover, along with the Moonies, Hare Krishna, etc.
There are a couple of good older threads here regarding dating or trying to maintain a relationship with a Landmarker. Have you read them?
Ellen
Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: November 20, 2006 03:15AM
Quote
The Anticult
Its sad to see someone buy into the garbage philosophy of Werner Erhard, the idea that our relationships, or anything else, actually don't have any intrinsic meaning. Victor Frankl put together a philosophy that allows a person to reprocess the meaning of events, that has a superficial similarity to the above concept. But Frankl did it in a very humanistic and responsible manner. But Werner Erhard is just marketing the ethics and mentality of the sociopath. This way, a guy like Werner Erhard can dump his family, and figuratively or literally "rape and pillage", and hey, nothing means anything so who cares? It works for him, at least in getting more money, sex, and stuff. Its really marketing the destructive mindset of a sociopath, where people are simply an object to be used.
I think often the most trusting and sometimes "decent" folks fall the hardest for the LGAT garbage philosophy, because it doesn't occur to them that someone like Werner Erhard could simply be lying to them, to manipulate them. Whereas a person who is a little more cynical in life, can see pretty fast that someone is trying to con them.
A person who totally buys into the destructive Landmark junk-philosophy hook-line and sinker, is headed for disaster in life. Its too bad that folks didn't have more training in skeptical analysis, so they would not just "believe" and buy-into the types of manipulative garbage philosophies of people like Werner Erhard.
The irony is that Werner teaches them to not perceive themselves as Victims, when in reality Werner is literally victimizing them, and that is what allows Werner to victimize them! It gets rid of those healthy boundaries we are supposed to have to keep ourselves from being used and abused, Werner learned early on he had to smash down that resistance first, or no one would buy what he was selling.
Werner Erhard was/is a very sick and perverse person, who was pretty smart, but mostly just utterly ruthless and sociopathic. Too bad he never ended up where he belongs, in the slammer. But even if he did, he would have kept running his organizations from the inside.
Well put and succinct, Anticult. I agree with everthing you've written here.
Ellen
Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
skeptic
()
Date: November 20, 2006 04:00AM
This discussion is helpful for me in understanding some of the causes of the breakdown in the relationship my sister and I had after her lgat breakthrough.
Trying to communicate with her was truly an impossibility. I tried for over 2 years, then came to my senses and gave up. She invariably made our discussions about my mental state and my flaws. She was brutally critical of me but told me she felt compassion for me. She professed compassion and slammed me, in the same breath. My head spun. One time I told her I didn't think she was compassionate and she told me I was wrong and that all the [cult] people thought she was!!!!!!!!!! I almost died! Her self-blindedness and self-delusion astounded me. And I saw how the fellow lgat-ers promoted it.
She got in the lgat just when I got out and watching her "apply" the crap really opened my eyes to lies and the insanity.
skeptic
Trying to communicate with her was truly an impossibility. I tried for over 2 years, then came to my senses and gave up. She invariably made our discussions about my mental state and my flaws. She was brutally critical of me but told me she felt compassion for me. She professed compassion and slammed me, in the same breath. My head spun. One time I told her I didn't think she was compassionate and she told me I was wrong and that all the [cult] people thought she was!!!!!!!!!! I almost died! Her self-blindedness and self-delusion astounded me. And I saw how the fellow lgat-ers promoted it.
She got in the lgat just when I got out and watching her "apply" the crap really opened my eyes to lies and the insanity.
skeptic
Anti / Pro Landmark - Statement / Response
Posted by:
Maggie
()
Date: November 23, 2006 05:46AM
skeptic.. you say "She professed compassion and slammed me, in the same breath. " That is a typcial abuse tactic: I love you [slap].
In fact, a lot of the Landmark verbal strategy has its base in the abuse cycle and bullying. If you complain or question them, YOU'RE WRONG! There is a cycle of abuse/acceptance... so at the time of acceptance you are so grateful for it, you'll do anything for them.
The best thing you can do with a someone who has completely "drunk the koolaid" is walk away. And unfortunately that hurts when it's someone you love.
~maggie
In fact, a lot of the Landmark verbal strategy has its base in the abuse cycle and bullying. If you complain or question them, YOU'RE WRONG! There is a cycle of abuse/acceptance... so at the time of acceptance you are so grateful for it, you'll do anything for them.
The best thing you can do with a someone who has completely "drunk the koolaid" is walk away. And unfortunately that hurts when it's someone you love.
~maggie
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