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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: Elster ()
Date: August 11, 2003 08:19PM

I was recently approached to go to a registration and my instant gut reaction was no. I have been going through very up and down times as we all do and I felt I would be too vulnerable and it actually scared me.

I have now done a lot of research into this and it concerns me that a lot of people I like/respect have this high on their list as 'the way forward', it puts a slight spanner in our relationship as I do not speak in 'complete' language or 'powerful request, promised actions and likely stories'

Anymore info on how to remain opposed? Will I eventually be ousted as a friend/colleague if I don't give in? (not that I would let that affect me, it would just be sad)

Thanks for all your info.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: Hope ()
Date: August 12, 2003 08:34AM

You use Landmark's own language on them and answer with, "I choose not to."

Good for you for recognizing your vulnerability and not being taken for a ride.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: righttofight ()
Date: August 12, 2003 08:52AM

This is a cult.

I joined a similar group in L.A.

Lost my girlfriend because I spoke out about it/them.

They are psychologically dangerous.

You will be ostracized if you do not go.

They are all about making bank. The "cover" is to give you a better life. It's b.s. The RET techniques they use do give the participant short term benefit. It wears off. But the debit from your checking account does not. The whole program costs close to 3G. These companies (yes, they are profit making companies) depend on it. They use people like Tupperware products to move up the ladder for their MLM needs (multi-level marketing).

The people that own/run these trainings are vicious and zealots. They believe all who oppose are weak, or not capable of growing - there for expendable.

You will be expendable in the eyes of the ones who join.

My advice is separate from these people and be prepared emotionally. They will be ripped from you whether you like it or not.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 12, 2003 11:36AM

Recruiters for certain authoritarian groups/leaders may practice what I would call 'manipulative intimacy' (a contradiction in terms--which is why it is so crazy-making).

In my opinion:

They do not see people as human beings whose inner privacy entitles them to respect; they see us as objects to be manipulated, trophies to be captured in thier Great Game. The ends justify the means.

Altruism is replaced by machiavellian priorities. Friendship/kinship are reframed as points of recruitment for marketing. If you refuse to allow friendship or kinship to be perverted in this noxious manner, you get accused of 'negativity and 'closemindedness. If you stand firm, you will have to be prepared to lose these people.

If you read Len Oakes' book Prophetic Charisma you will learn a lot about this.

Key thing is when you have conversations with people operating from this agenda, YOU MUST PROTECT YOURSELF FROM BEING TAMPERED WITH IF YOU DISCUSS YOUR OWN AREAS OF SELF DOUBT. If you divulge anything about your vulnerability, they will twist it around to convince you that you need to do their program.

Here is a choice quote from Oakes:

`A common manipulative strategy used by the leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponent's personal insecurity. In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency or uncertainty. This was not always a flaw of logic or an error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader knew little and would ahve been unable to detect such a mistake. Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent that the leaders/recruiter's exquisite social perception targeted. In some way, often by metacommenting (Oakes means commenting about your manner of saying something, rather than responding to what you have said--my note), the meaning of whatever insecurity involved was exposed. Typically what was said was an observation that the opponent seemed "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what all this is about." In this way, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seducatively to expand upon the very point of weakness. Or the leader(recruiter) claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying the opponent was not making sense. This usually led to a further exposure (confessional of personal weakness or perplexity-my note) until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At this point, a well timed, dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate...'

(Oakes pp 89-90)

you may as well assume you are under arrest and dealing with the police; any confession of doubt, display of emotion or human vulnerability will be used against you.

Many people have been forced to end relationships with friends and partners who have been turned into obnoxious, highly skilled manipulators by certain unpleasant organizations.

Key thing is your own sanity and integrity must be kept sacrosanct and off limits from their tampering. You may have to set limits and refuse to permit any discussion of your emotions or concerns if these are twisted into material for a recruitment attempt. And, you may need to be ready to lose these people if they refuse to honor your wishes.

[b:45dc22f565]Make it clear that you love them as human beings but will not tolerate them in your life as recruiters. [/b:45dc22f565]

Good luck, let us know how things turn out.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: Elster ()
Date: August 13, 2003 07:38PM

Dear All

Really appreciate all the advice, thank you. Had it not been for my gut instinct then I would have gone along with it. It's really good to know that this exists so people can get advice from the other side. I have a few friends who have been along to evenings and come out thinking everyone was barking mad.

The person in question happens to be my employer, so I have discussed it with my partner and we are agreed that if it comes up again, I make it very clear it's a 'I choose not to' scenario and stick to professional issues or we go seperate ways. He got involved in the first place due unresolved personal issues - now he is 'complete'.

Recently my partner's brother was diagnosed with a relapse into cancer again and I was upset at work one morning. This opened up a dangerous route I felt as there was much worry and concern for my 'well being' which was nice but I was worried it could be a double edged sword. I have not mentioned it since.

I am still annoyed about the whole thing, as it was my first week, I was trying to make a good impression and it threw me into a total tizz. I felt violated and used. But from what you have said, it all makes sense.

So thank you again and I will let you know what happens.


Thought I was the mad one for a few minutes!

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 15, 2003 11:48AM

laws to protect you from workplace tampering?

Its lousy to keep mum at work about one's personal sorrows for fear that any display of tenderness or concern could target one for recruitment. We spend so much of our waking time at work, that being forced to keep quiet at work represents an oppression of one's spirit.

You did not need this load of bollocks your first week at work.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: Elster ()
Date: August 15, 2003 06:39PM

Hi Corboy

Thank you for your reply, again just makes me feel tougher about the whole thing because I have been enlightened by people who have had long standing experience with these people.

My Mum likened them to the Moonies - she lost a cousin to that cult for 2 years, who also had a baby via one of the divine 'leaders'. Eventually her family kidnapped her and her son and she had to remain in safe hiding for a year before they stopped trying to find her. She talks about it now amazed that she could even get involved and her son is the apple of her eye.

I think all the loving and hugging and 'completing' that goes on would be a wonderful thing if they could channel the energy maybe into finding a cure for cancer or something like that - at least then they really would be enlightening people and helping out in the world.

Good luck with your Stepmom, I am sorry to hear that she is unwell. Have you heard of the Thymus treatment they are using on cancer patients now? It's worth a look - the organisation is called Papimi and found at this web address: []

It is a terribly hard time for everyone and you have to stay strong, but worth having a look at these treatments, in our case, this is round 2 and it's at Stage IV so have to move fast, yet he's open to trying anything, especially when it doesn't invlove chemo.

As you say, you really don't need the whole LF sell at a time like this, it's highly insensitive and really exposes it for what it is!

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 15, 2003 11:51PM

very lucky.

Sounds like she lucked out two fold--the deprogramming worked successfully and she had excellent long term aftercare and exit counseling. And, to cap it all, she loves her son, despite the circumstances in which she became a mom.

Humans are just so powerfully affected by social setting and context. Thats what makes us human--we want to connect and can connect. It is a tragedy when what is best in us--human longing for connection--is used against us.

But your cousin got out. Good.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: andyval ()
Date: September 05, 2003 06:06AM

Here's why you are frankly talking s!*!t.
Any cult worth a damn has followers following a leader. The emaphasis is on recruitment to 1. satisfy the coffers and 2. give a ego boost to the leader(s).
Which cult actively encourages independant thought and encourages the use of anything learn't for use in everyday life in a way that benefits yourself and others without the need for anyone to know why you or they are benefitting. For example becomming happier at work, more productive and less stressed.

What self respecting cult lets the brainwashing process to be so crap that after 5 years of on and of participation (nay immersion in the trainng) I can walk away and not bother for 4 years.

What sort of cult encourages active listening (the thing you stop doing about 1 min ago) y'know, actually listening - to EVERYBODY. No not just Landmark but EVERYBODY. Which means other ways of thinking, other ideas. Even the bit you didn't hear - so let me explain.

Landmark, like my company, is a business, it and my business want to sell products. I sell training for a fee and so do they. If we don't we are not a business. We offer a service. We don't like costs. The cheapest advert is word-of-mouth.
So guess what? they want the customer to invite other customers to buy the product.
Heres where you went deaf: people say no, and no means no?? Sorry not in sales, no might mean: not today, not sure, can't see the beneifit etc AND sometimes it means no, so you say thanks for listening and move on.

So heres the big big scary cult secret. The courses all say, quite clearly (but only if you listen to another opinion for one little second maybe just once before you die) that the course in the room is irrelevent. You need to examine you and where you come across your responses to the course and the words you hear when you are out living as life. No onme in Landmark TOLD you to do anything. You get invited with a hard sell to invite others to particiapate in something you have done and to cope with a NO!!
Not in the training but in all the hundreds of occaisions you want other people to participate in your life, an enthusiastic invitation, with passion and a sincere belief that the other would benefit.

If you got married you may have done this at least once.

So a cult? no regular % of income demanded, no leaders to praise, the encouragement to ignore Landmark courses and go live your life, allowing people to leave (by the way, yes they 'phone and invite me to do courses - and I say no - and they stop calling, boy are they scary people!!!!! ooooooooo!) no belief system (no self belief does not count as a religion) no meetings.

Final point.You may meet course junkies. They like courses and self discovery groups but not life as normal. Landmark course leaders (yes the have leader in the title- watch out for the hypnotic eyes !!!! - on no I'm lost) repeatedly tell those that have listened not to confuse life with Landmark 'IT' is not happening in the course room doing a bloody course is not important.

Must go now and praise my leader.
Best wishes from a concerned browser who always worries about fellow humans who are scared by nonsense or by anything new. My advice is go forth and gain as much new and weird experiances from as many different people as possible but for you cult leaders sake go and live a happy, loving life.

Did my life change through Landmark? Yes! Life also changed my life - a life threatening neurological condition, a life threatening bowel disease, my cancer, my family, my marriage, my friends and the birth of my daughter. Oh! and anybody I care to listen to - you never know they may change your way of thinking.

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Considering the Forum???
Posted by: andyval ()
Date: September 05, 2003 05:28PM

Not a very balanced discussion then. If I criticise the Forum I'm OK and if I disagree with the complaints I'm under the influence of Landmark - is that correct? A bit 'catch 22'

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