Glenn,

Are you saying that no one should have anything but good things to say about the Forum? If someone makes a complaint or describes their experience in the Forum as being less than positive, that they do that with EVERY other aspect of their life?

Could you invent the possibility that not everyone had the same experience as you did?

Hope,
i am not saying that anyone should have anything but good things about the forum.
you said that!

and that they do that with EVERY other aspect of their life?
nope did not say that either
you did!

do you know the difference between listening and hearing?

This forum exists to serve the specific needs of persons who have looked carefully at their lives and have reached the reasonable conclusion that their experience with a teacher, leader,group or a problematic LGAT left them in worse shape financially and psychologically than before they participated. Just as there are resources for persons who have suffered from physician malpractice, this forum is a resource for persons who have evidence that they have experienced LGAT malpractice.

Key thing to remember is that not everybody has a positive experience from an LGAT, and many of us are concerned that prospective recruits are not adequately warned ahead of time that participating in certain LGATS can be risky, even hazardous to psychological health. Informed consent is crucial.

This forum has been set up as a self help resource precisely so that people who have had stress reactions from various LGATS can compare notes, identify resources and get help. This forum would not have so many correspondants if the need did not exist.

If someone is delighted with their LGAT experience, that is fine. The plain fact is that others come here and report they have been traumatized. Therefore they need to have an open space where they can dialogue, identify resources for healing, and take active steps in self healing.

I don't feel anyone here is trying to prove they are right but I can only speak for myself. I am describing my experience.

"i am not saying that anyone should have anything but good things about the forum.
you said that!"

No - I asked for clarity.

I would just like to quickly clarify something. This Forum is a place for people to generally discuss various issues connected to the subjects and group categories listed.

If someone wants to praise LGATs or whatever, that's their right and/or choice. Though obviously most people posting are not really praising or promoting such programs.

Having said that, I think it's rather obvious that LGATs have a deeply troubled history of complaints, bad press and litigation regarding personal injury claims.

Landmark Forum certainly fits well within this category and has such a sordid history. However, if someone wants to praise Landmark that's certainly their right as a Forum member here.

Landmark does seem to often produce this result. That is, they are very successful at persuading people that their programs are good, and those so persuaded subsequently praise Landmark and offer up anecdotal stories about how great it is.

Originally posted by glenn7

"i have done the landmark form and advanced course,
i got alot out of it, it did help with all aspects of my life.
i have told people about it, and they run it down
and thats ok.
people even have run me down for doing it.
and thats ok.
but the thing i notice about these people is they run everything thing down that they don't understand, like ,trust.

in short landmark gives you the tools for the GAME of life.
that is what they first tell you, look on the front of the brouchure.
anyone can take that as they want.
i leanrt from landmark.
some people by the comments here just want to prove that they are right by running things down.
thats the way they choose to play there game of life."

to glenn, mind control now equates
trust. very intereting.

Someone said:

<<some people by the comments here just want to prove that they are right by running things down.
thats the way they choose to play there game of life.">>

I find it interesting that when LGAT types are presented with the latest body of scientific evidence and/or opinions re. LGAT's, that they sidestep them completely and accuse the presenter of such information as being "negative" and "not nice," and being "hostile, mad and intolerant of 'alternative' philosophies and/or religions." I dated an overly sensitive new age chick a while back, who similarly equated the criticism of her ideas with criticism of her personally. Needless to say we broke up since any discussions were futile. With her it was out of ingorance; but with LEC types one cannot help but observe that at this forum and others that the ad hominem attacks of Forum supporters are quite typical of how they respond to their critics. Despite their claims of being "transformed" and being "exceptional" it is quite astonishing how hostile and how melodramatically they play the victim as if to try to manipulate the skeptic to feel guilty. Even if for the sake of argument one would assume that LEC types are right insofar that we create our own reality, their victimology schtik quite clearly shows that they do not truly feel this in their hearts. Metaphysical self-determination is utterly incompatible with materialistic victimology. The two "isms" are like oil and water. I guess that would be my definition of the LEC types who I've enountered then: A mass of conflicting "ists" and "isms." As someone once said: "Ignorance is NOT a point of view." It's fine to have an opinion, but it has to based on more than simply hearsay or forum trainers' so-called training that's psychologically unlicensed, unaccredited and undegreed, how reassuring. And to automatically attack the presenter of ideas simply because they offend the sensibilities of the LEC listener demonstrates the very WORST kind of intellectual intolerance. What's really amusing is to remind them that since they "create their own reality" that it's all their fault. They HATE that.

It's difficult to talk the people who participated in these trainings that they did not feel something incredible.

The training is designed to elevate you.

But the twisted purpose is what escapes the participants.

It did me, until I reached the third level.

At that point: the mind control screws really get turned.

Uniform dress code.
Weekly conformity meetings.
Daily phone calls.
Shifting trust to the leader or "captain" and your inner circle.
Same anxiety raising games.
Sleep deprivation during workshop weekends.

I did not understand what was happening until a friend who was disaffected from Scientology spelled it out for me. And, the owner of this training workshop started using her power to break up my personal relationship. As sick as it is: these people who own these companies are very sick emotionally. I had her diagnosed as an "injured narcissist". So was Adolph Hitler, by the way. The world revolves around them. They will do anything - ANYTHING - to be right - to be the center of their universe. Control. Lie. Anything. Hitler's case: kill.

But the training works on an emotional level otherwise nobody would sign up. It's what they do with the emotional handbag they create for you that is dangerous. Only sophisticated people can see through this and even then it takes some education. Educate. Be compassionate. You cannot punish anyone for not seeing through this charade. At some point: they will have the same sick feeling the German soldiers had after the war was over. They participated in something that was dangerous and hurts people.

This thread has over 400 viewings!

There is a lot of attention to the fact this is a FORUM related discussion.

Probably, this company is reading these posts.

The description of the workshops is excellent by the way.

Very true to what they really are.

Even in Los Angeles.

<<Uniform dress code.
Weekly conformity meetings.
Daily phone calls.
Shifting trust to the leader or "captain" and your inner circle.
Same anxiety raising games.
Sleep deprivation during workshop weekends.>>

Social psychology has a theory. Its name escapes me at the moment; but essentially if you can get someone to do a small--seemingly harmless--thing for you, then that person will be much more likely to do the next larger thing for you and so on....And once these precedents are set up, we tend to justify subsequent congruent thoughts and behaviors and resist thoughts and actions that are contrary to them.

<<I did not understand what was happening until a friend who was disaffected from Scientology spelled it out for me. And, the owner of this training workshop started using her power to break up my personal relationship. As sick as it is: these people who own these companies are very sick emotionally. I had her diagnosed as an "injured narcissist". So was Adolph Hitler, by the way. The world revolves around them. They will do anything - ANYTHING - to be right - to be the center of their universe. Control. Lie. Anything. Hitler's case: kill.>>

Yes, that observation is congruent with post-forum behavior that I have witnessed elsewhere.

<<But the training works on an emotional level otherwise nobody would sign up. It's what they do with the emotional handbag they create for you that is dangerous. Only sophisticated people can see through this and even then it takes some education. Educate. Be compassionate. You cannot punish anyone for not seeing through this charade. At some point: they will have the same sick feeling the German soldiers had after the war was over. They participated in something that was dangerous and hurts people.>>

Yes experience has shown that emotions play a huge, and often the only, role in how we make our decisions therefrom from which we try to make intellectual justifications later. How something or someone makes us feel often trumps any logical arguments to the contrary, and thus it makes a highly effective way to manipulate people. Boy, could I tell you a "how to" on that one; but I don't want to give anyone any new ideas to inflict on unsuspecting forum/similar wannabees.

You're right though about it being futile to argue with them, for people only appreciate truth when they realize it for themselves. You never forget it then, for it becomes second nature. I'll never forget where I was when the "one hand clapping" answer seemed to fall out of the sky and into my head. Experience has taught me that people do not appreciate things, or people for that matter, that/who are too easy.

I don't mean to sound punitive against the individuals who so the forum. I understand and even empathize with all the hurting people who are seeking something; but I bristle at the phonies who peddle this stuff trying to say that what they have experienced somehow trumps serveral centuries worth of scientific empirical method, and that we should simply ignore expert opinions and listen only to them. This may be someone's first exposure to such a forum, and as a result they may form their most significant and persistent opinion about LEC for the rest of their life. Also like, Northern lady, or whatever her alias was, I feel we need to inoculate ourselves since these LEC types are amazingly good at making their assertions sound extremely reasonable and desirable. For weeks I thought that I was the crazy one after my friend essentially said that if I didin't accept the forum then I don't accept her. Rick Ross may not have just saved me my money.

I don't appreciate how the proponents of the Landmark forum act in a huff like everyone is supposed to accept their anecdotal evidence to be as valid as scientific evidence. It isn't. Yet when someone sound so totally positive about something and acts like it too, it's easy for the uninformed to accept what they say as truth. I feel people need to know that as far as science is concerned anecdotal evidence is worthless. That's not being "mean" or "intolerant" like some LEC boosters insinuate elsewhere like at the Delphi forum or others (never here though to my experience thankfull to any significant degree) or simply come right out and say it. It's not being mean. It's just being a smart shopper. But when one is in the thrall of an emotional orgasm I guess you cannot expect them to discuss something rationally or logically.

Regardless, after their theft of my best friend I consider Landmark Education Corporation a vile and insidious inf-EST-ation that needs to be eradicated via its most lethal pesticide: KNOWLEDGE. My anger may boil over a bit at times and make me sound a bit harsh; but I essentially agree with what you said. I admire the fact that these forum attendees at least had the initiative to try to do SOMETHING about their lives instead of just whining and doing nothing. There is SO VERY MUCH to know and so little time to learn it. Sometimes we have to take chances, re-examine our assumptions and try another strategies. It's a pity though that the pre forum attendees weren't exposed to the many plagiarized yet perfectly helpful psychological techniques used by landmark but without all the bs and manipulation landmark mixes in with them. Now these same individuals understandably might assume that landmark was responsible for the creation of these many powerful and helpful psychological techniques, and understandably they will be offended when someone(s) like me criticizes landmark and thus seems to belittle the very-real benefits that they derived therefrom. I concede that they may very well have derived some help from participation in the forum. But I still contend that they could have gotten the same benefits elsewhere without all the self-serving manipulations of Landmark and its acolytes.

K.