If you want indoctrination, [www.culteducation.com] will not provide it.

For one thing, RR.com cannot control the physical environment, or script the social interactions. All it does is offer reading matter, from which you pick and choose.

RR.com provides the opposite of indoctrination and equip people to make their own decisions whether to expose themselves to reportedly controversial groups.

You can read all the stuff on [www.culteducation.com] in the privacy of your own home. You can even keep your PJ's on, go to the bathroom when you like, go out with your own choice of friends when bored, and discuss what you find. You can read the stuff here at your own pace, and can log off any time you feel bored or anxious. And, you dont have to pay a penny to do this--except for your monthly fees to your ISP and telephone company.

By contrast, you have to cough up a large chunk of money to do certain LGATs and other events, and these tend to be in tightly controlled, scripted social engineering setting--though often they try to hide this from you.

There's no agenda on [www.culteducation.com.] Just a ton of info and the chance to correspond with some highly informed people who give you plenty of freedom to reach your own conclusions. The site doesnt threaten to dump you if you dont agree. RR.com is not your boss so it cant fire you. No pressure at all. What a concept.

If you get bored, you can log off, and you will not be hounded by phone calls or pop up ads.

If you are concerned or curious about an LGAT, persevere and read the archived material and the many, many posts from people who have lost loved friends, lovers and family members because of the disruptive effects of various LGATs.

IMHO, most LGATs are a game played with marked cards and its a game only Landmark wins. The rest of us lose. It makes you feel good at first, just as crack cocaine does, but in the long term the high is not sustainable, and you find out your world is getting smaller, not larger.

I take it that you are referring primarily to me.

I am not an employee of Landmark. No one has put me up to voicing my views. I'm freely expressing my own opinions - which I make no claim to be the ultimate and final truth - I am just sharing with people what I got out of particpating in Landmark.

I think in the interests of fairness and balance this is only right.

Your posts remind me of the old time bible thumping preachers who'd put the fear of God into people.

You know, you're entitled to your opinion. I can't vouch for or contest any of the other material on the site - I wouldn't know a scientologist from a branch davidian - everything you say about them might be true. I don't know. All I can say is that the information about Landmark, at best, seems ill-informed.

It seems I am to be criticised for saying I found Landmark to beneficial to me, and for also challenging your statements.

You say:


--he left after he learned that he was using sophisticated methods of hypnosis to trance people out--so skillfully that even a professional hypnotist told him she could not tell the onset of the trance induction.


If that is true, and you can prove it, why haven't you sued? Why haven't you done something about it? I don't know the law but surely that's illegal.

Listen, if you can prove that in a court of law I'll be right there with you, on your side.

All the stuff you talk about with regards to Landmark just doesn't occur in my experience of the company or the work. I just don't know where - or from what kind of people - you are getting your information. If someone wants to have some kind of discussion with me - and tell me what's so horrible about it all - I'll be more than happy to do that.

I'm just an ordinary guy, with a wife, two kids and a normal job.

Unless of course, you're afraid I'll hypnotise you with my Vulcan death ray

:p

Wolfy,

The words came out of the mouth of the guy who left. Re-read the post where it came from. He wrote it in another forum. He was recounting his own experience with working for LE.

is time taken away from wife and family.

>>I am not an employee of Landmark. No one has put me up to voicing my views. I'm freely expressing my own opinions - which I make no claim to be the ultimate and final truth - I am just sharing with people what I got out of particpating in Landmark.>>


Oh but you *ARE* the perfect Landmark "employee;" one who works for free spreading the good word about this corporation and its "product" without financial compensation. One designed through special "technology" to do exactly what you are doing.



>>I think in the interests of fairness and balance this is only right.>>


(This doesn't sound like proper Landmarkese. I think you need to reread your script.)


>>Your posts remind me of the old time bible thumping preachers who'd put the fear of God into people.>>


Old time bible thumpers were the first to discover instant "conversion," or what they call "transformation" in Landmark. They were the ones who started the "tech."


>>You know, you're entitled to your opinion. I can't vouch for or contest any of the other material on the site - I wouldn't know a scientologist from a branch davidian - everything you say about them might be true. I don't know. All I can say is that the information about Landmark, at best, seems ill-informed.>>


Landmark is the current name for "est," which was based, in part, on scientology and still encapsulates many scientological concepts and techniques of manipulation and control.



>>It seems I am to be criticised for saying I found Landmark to beneficial to me, and for also challenging your statements.>>


We've no doubt you found Landmark to be "beneficial." Lots of people do. Lots of people think they are benefitted by snake-oil, quack cures, magic water, whatever. And lots of people want to sell fake "medicine" to others. *THAT'S* what you are being critisized for.




>> "--he left after he learned that he was using sophisticated methods of hypnosis to trance people out--so skillfully that even a professional hypnotist told him she could not tell the onset of the trance induction.">>


>>If that is true, and you can prove it, why haven't you sued? Why haven't you done something about it? I don't know the law but surely that's illegal. >>


Cults have lots and lots of money and legal assistance to protect themselves. Something is in the works, however.


>>Listen, if you can prove that in a court of law I'll be right there with you, on your side.>>


Uh....not convinced.



>>All the stuff you talk about with regards to Landmark just doesn't occur in my experience of the company or the work. I just don't know where - or from what kind of people - you are getting your information. If someone wants to have some kind of discussion with me - and tell me what's so horrible about it all - I'll be more than happy to do that.>>


We have. You discount everything that is posted with Landmark-logic and Landmark-fed rebuttals. There's a ton of information out there and easy enough to find.

You can be fooled "experiencially" just as you can be fooled intellectually or emotionally. Every Moonie, Branch Davidian, Hare Krishna devotee, or Christian Scientist thinks *HIS* experience is valid.

>>I'm just an ordinary guy, with a wife, two kids and a normal job.>>


(I am not religious but (God help them.))


>>Unless of course, you're afraid I'll hypnotise you with my Vulcan death ray>>


No, we're afraid you'll keep spreading the "disease" to more and more unsuspecting and gullible.


Ellen

Quote
wolfy

I am not an employee of Landmark. No one has put me up to voicing my views. I'm freely expressing my own opinions - which I make no claim to be the ultimate and final truth - I am just sharing with people what I got out of particpating in Landmark.

All the stuff you talk about with regards to Landmark just doesn't occur in my experience of the company or the work. I just don't know where - or from what kind of people - you are getting your information.

I'm just an ordinary guy, with a wife, two kids and a normal job.

Unless of course, you're afraid I'll hypnotise you with my Vulcan death ray

:p

Wolfy's posts are TOTAL manipulation.
Of course Wolfy is not an "employee". True Believers WORK FOR FREE. THEY ARE FREE EMPLOYEES. (otherwise known as SUCKERS).

Hypnosis is not illegal. All sorts of people in the Personal Development business do it. Doesn't make it Ethically okay to do it though.

Again, same stuff from Wolfy.
Trying to take Landmark, and make it seem ok.
No one is going to buy that BS.

Landmark exists to MANIPULATE YOU and then TAKE YOUR MONEY.

Period.
There is no Value in its idiotic Philosophy of nihilism. It would be laughed out of Philosophy 103 on DAY ONE.

There is NOTHING there.
That is the Landmark "trick".
Landmark is simply a mindf**k, to get at your WALLET.

That's it!
I "get it".
:D

Coz

I can see that rational discussion is not something that appears here as an option. We can bat this argument back and forth all year.

Perhaps you can look at what you're getting out of killing me off - a total stranger - labelling me. You have no experience of my life, what I do or what I'm like - yet, because I disagree with your dogma, I am somehow brainwashed and my opinion is worth nothing. In fact, it's not even my opinion - in your eyes I am some kind of sub-human shyster.

And as for my family? They don't need God to help them. They live in the real world and are more than capable of helping themselves.

They're free-thinking individuals able to reach their own reasoned and rational conclusions. They choose not to live their lives in fear.

As the old saying goes, "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see." I can't wait for that to be thrown back at me.

Let me know when you can prove something about the hypnosis - or when you win a law suit. Please do. My expectation is that you're talking garbage - actions count - make it happen. And as I said, if it's proved I'll be right there with you. I think it helps you believe that you're right to believe I wouldn't be - no matter what I say you'll never see me as someone who has free will because to do undermines what you believe.

It also seems odd to me that no one has asked what I got out of Landmark and what it did for my family - could that be because you've already made up your mind, and you already know the "truth"? It's a sad day when a person has nothing left to learn or experience. It's called being alive.

I guess Landmark would call it "being present".

Be careful. I just used a Landmark work. Check your body for signs of alien implantation.

a person on another listserve recently complained that Rick would NOT include in the database archives material she'd sent on a group she was worried about.

'Rick wants all info already documented and published and he wants me to get him the web links for all published facts (that which comes aside from me). ' (paraphrase)

To re-iterate:

This is a balanced website. The official websites of all controversial groups are included along with the warnings and media coverage.

If you want evidence, read it yourself on the forums and in the archives. Demanding that we rebut your questions point by point is simply laziness. Read the material on the archives. If you do not, that demonstrates that you're afraid to have your indoctrination tampered with.

It is your job to convince yourself.

Time spent nagging people who have all had bad experiences with an LGAT is time stolen from your wife and family.

Law School Proverb on how to Argue Cases

'If the evidence is in your favor, argue the facts.

If the evidence is against you, argue from the law.

If both the law and evidence are against you, yell, scream, pound the table and attack the integrity of your opponents.'

I just completed the Landmark forum. I am probably as qualified to discuss it as anyone else.

I got some feelings of elation and connection from it, especially on the third day. At that time, I felt very empowered and filled with hope.

I have often had this experience in the Seventies, when there were all sorts of these seminars going on everywhere. The problem was that, nice as the euphoria was, it wore off in a few days, or a few weeks at most. I didn't derive any lasting benefit from it.

I notice that Landmark gives you that euphoria. Then it has you call people close to you, to either resolve issues you had between them, or to simply involve them in your efforts to grow. There is a final evening on the Tuesday following the weekend, at which time you are told to bring your friends. You wouldn't want them to miss out on the wonderful experience, etc. The facilitator actually told us to make sure our friends brought their checkbooks or credit cards with them.

To my way of thinking, this is primarily an effort to make the most of the person's enthusiasm. You've had them call various people during each break in the program. You've turned them loose for a couple of days, to go about their lives normally. The participants would be enthusiastic, uplifted, and quite willing to talk about their wonderful experience. And the people close to them, seeing this wonderful change, would be eager to sign up.

The thing is, what will happen a week or two after the forum? Will there be any remnant of the enthusiasm then? My past experiences with other seminars suggests that it wears off rather quickly. I don't know why Landmark should be any different, though to be fair I haven't seen what does happen...

Baruch,

Your post reminded of how warm and fuzzy everyone felt towards the end of Sunday. I was feeling it and then the leader came right out and stated what we were feeling. He asked, don't we all feel great? We did such a great job, did a lot of work." By that time, much had been shared, associations had been formed, we were exhausted, hungry, coming to the end just before the big bomb was to be dropped about the whole point of the program.

At the time, I just figured the leader had done so many forums that he knew what we were feeling. However, there was also the nagging feeling that the emotional rollercoaster had been programmed. I felt this in part because some interactions with participants and the leader were exactly the same interactions I'd read about on PRO Landmark websites.

My euphoria lasted a day, and that in itself was amazing because the Forum had actually been anything but uplifting. I felt embarassed for people who had shared. By Tuesday, one of the women was in jeopardy of losing her job because she told her boss what a racket she had been running on him, and another coworker who she had some problem with regarding a lunch date. Another person had left in tears when the leader sneered and lambasted him for going through life thinking his father (who had beat him with a chair when he was 7 y/o), was deranged.

So this elation made no sense. I crashed a day later. I went back to the Seminar Series to see if maybe I could get more out of the stretched out version, but it was so poorly administered that I and many of us dropped out. One of the volunteers ran it as she was in traiining to be a forum leader. She was able to summon up tears while recounting how wonderful Landmark had made her life, so much so that she was willing to commit her entire life to working for them.

Landmark covers their collective asses by stating that crashing is normal - a setback or something - and more reason to take the Seminar series and Advanced forum.