Choices Seminars
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: June 30, 2007 01:04AM
Quote
One coach in a group thing said to my daughter that he saw her as pond scum! and that is supposed to help you grow???
Exactly, how are you supposed to grow from such insults???? Our course (Quest-seminars) also had some very bad insults for people. well done on leaving early, against all the pressure, I can well imagine.
As for all that stuff they want you to give up - our course was the same (except they didn't say anything caffeine) and they get so moralistic about it and make out its for your own good, but the REAL reason is to make you feel bad, same reason they insult everyone, and also because if you suddenly give up coffee or smoking it unsettles your body chemistry and makes you more susceptible to brain-washing. And its so arrogant, to tell people how to run their lives at all. I'd rather be free with a few bad habits then a drone living on carrot juice.
Is it true what Dragonfly said earlier, that first nations people can get grants to do the courses? Is Thelma Box also first nations? What do you think of this group targetting first nations, do you think its just for easy money or some other reason??
How does what they teach fit with the culture of being first nations? How does your band structure affect how people are recruited? Is a band an extended family? I'm not American so I don't know anything about first nations, except that the first white americans carried out a genocide, and some stereotyped things I've seen in films, that are probably completely wrong.
I am curious about this because it seems some LGATs choose special groups to target, like Impact targetting the Mormons, and I wonder why.
Choices Seminars
Posted by:
midnight
()
Date: June 30, 2007 06:24AM
Hi SaneAgain
To the question regarding grants, yes there is grant money for education and I believe this is what is being used. And Thelma is not First Nation. I do believe that they are targeting the First Nation people as the one that I was at there was only two people out of over 80 that were not First Nation. My brother has gotten quite involved in recruiting and fundraising to send other band members to these seminars and yet he hasn't changed. He had at first but has gone back to being the same as before.
The Band itself is in some ways like extended family because many are related to each other in some way and the community can be quite close.
What they are teaching at the seminar in no way has anything to do with our culture and I think that the reason for her targeting First Nation people is she has found a way to make easy money. She has obviously done her homework on funding that First Nations have available to them and how vulnerable some are. I really find it disturbing that this is happening and so few see it for what it is.
To the question regarding grants, yes there is grant money for education and I believe this is what is being used. And Thelma is not First Nation. I do believe that they are targeting the First Nation people as the one that I was at there was only two people out of over 80 that were not First Nation. My brother has gotten quite involved in recruiting and fundraising to send other band members to these seminars and yet he hasn't changed. He had at first but has gone back to being the same as before.
The Band itself is in some ways like extended family because many are related to each other in some way and the community can be quite close.
What they are teaching at the seminar in no way has anything to do with our culture and I think that the reason for her targeting First Nation people is she has found a way to make easy money. She has obviously done her homework on funding that First Nations have available to them and how vulnerable some are. I really find it disturbing that this is happening and so few see it for what it is.
Choices Seminars
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: June 30, 2007 05:53PM
Hi Midnight,
This is particularly distressing, because in addition to all the usual problems with lgats, as you just said this one:
* manipulates people to use education grants that could be used for something that is actually useful.
* creates division in the band and community (usually restricted to family and friends)
* uses the structure of the band and community to recruit
* targets already disadvantaged people
:evil:
I wonder if you can speak to someone who is a political activist and hasn't been sucked into this yet? I'm just thinking that might be an extra angle you could use.
Have you read this article called "TRAGIC OPTIMISM AND CHOICES: THE LIFE ATTITUDES SCALE WITH A FIRST NATIONS SAMPLE"
[www.twu.ca]
It is very biased, written by a psychology student who is clearly under the influence of Choices. It claims that the training improves Optimism and
'Life Attitude Scale' in people, and it is written in very effusive language for an academic article.
This is exactly the same finding of another study by psychologists, but interpreted differently. The other one basically found that the training had no positive effect on participants, only on their attitude to the training. ie. They all claimed their lives improved and the course had done wonders for them (the exact purpose of the brainwashing), but there was no evidence for this. So the conclusion was that the training was useless. The Choices study thinks the training is marvellous because it improves 'Optimism'.
If anyone has a link to that article (I can't find it) please can you paste the link here? I think it is important to have this link to contrast against the Choices article, because the Choices one is just propaganda wrapped in academic talk, and it comes up as soon as you search Choices on google, so it gives this very glowing expert approval to everything.
There are some very annoying statements in the Choices article, but I won't quote all of them because it would fill about six pages. Just one example though:
That's just not true. Most people are there because they were recruited and pressured by their families!
And one more:
Not very objective and academic!
Also worrying is quoted statistics about higher levels of suicide and mental health problems in first nation people, and the author even acknowledges in places that the training is rapid and potentially dangerous (buyer beware) and that it is uses Lifespring techniques (Lifespring has settled out of court for causing suicides) - but then she still endorses it. Total logical disconnect in this author who sees problems then carries on in glowing terms anyway!
In summary: The entire PURPOSE of an lgat is to manipulate people's emotions to create a false high (optimism) - SO THAT the person will go out and recommend the course to everyone else - SO THAT the lgat makes more money.
The academic article completely misses the point.
How much do the courses cost? How many people have done how many courses? What is the overhead - almost zero, since the courses use volunteers. That is the profit this ruthless businesswoman is making, while claiming to be 'changing the world'.
This is particularly distressing, because in addition to all the usual problems with lgats, as you just said this one:
* manipulates people to use education grants that could be used for something that is actually useful.
* creates division in the band and community (usually restricted to family and friends)
* uses the structure of the band and community to recruit
* targets already disadvantaged people
:evil:
I wonder if you can speak to someone who is a political activist and hasn't been sucked into this yet? I'm just thinking that might be an extra angle you could use.
Have you read this article called "TRAGIC OPTIMISM AND CHOICES: THE LIFE ATTITUDES SCALE WITH A FIRST NATIONS SAMPLE"
[www.twu.ca]
It is very biased, written by a psychology student who is clearly under the influence of Choices. It claims that the training improves Optimism and
'Life Attitude Scale' in people, and it is written in very effusive language for an academic article.
This is exactly the same finding of another study by psychologists, but interpreted differently. The other one basically found that the training had no positive effect on participants, only on their attitude to the training. ie. They all claimed their lives improved and the course had done wonders for them (the exact purpose of the brainwashing), but there was no evidence for this. So the conclusion was that the training was useless. The Choices study thinks the training is marvellous because it improves 'Optimism'.
If anyone has a link to that article (I can't find it) please can you paste the link here? I think it is important to have this link to contrast against the Choices article, because the Choices one is just propaganda wrapped in academic talk, and it comes up as soon as you search Choices on google, so it gives this very glowing expert approval to everything.
There are some very annoying statements in the Choices article, but I won't quote all of them because it would fill about six pages. Just one example though:
Quote
Most people attend personal growth seminars to work
through difficult circumstances in life and discover more reasons that life is worth living.
For the most part, they would not be there unless all of them needed help to some extent.
That's just not true. Most people are there because they were recruited and pressured by their families!
And one more:
Quote
All participants decide for themselves to exercise faith in the
leader and faith in the process. Box exhibits the type of leader qualities that give the seminar a lot of credibility. Most people see that at 69, her age is an advantage. She has a compelling personal story that resonates with others and inspires them. Her charismatic and dynamic presence in the training room is powerful. First Nations participants seem to
have few problems deciding to trust Box. They value her wisdom and give her the respect they believe she deserves as an elder. They also decide to have faith in her because of her six-year record of accomplishment with their people. They have seen for themselves and
heard about the positive changes in their communities.
Not very objective and academic!
Also worrying is quoted statistics about higher levels of suicide and mental health problems in first nation people, and the author even acknowledges in places that the training is rapid and potentially dangerous (buyer beware) and that it is uses Lifespring techniques (Lifespring has settled out of court for causing suicides) - but then she still endorses it. Total logical disconnect in this author who sees problems then carries on in glowing terms anyway!
In summary: The entire PURPOSE of an lgat is to manipulate people's emotions to create a false high (optimism) - SO THAT the person will go out and recommend the course to everyone else - SO THAT the lgat makes more money.
The academic article completely misses the point.
How much do the courses cost? How many people have done how many courses? What is the overhead - almost zero, since the courses use volunteers. That is the profit this ruthless businesswoman is making, while claiming to be 'changing the world'.
Choices Seminars
Posted by:
dragonfly
()
Date: August 25, 2007 07:53AM
Well its been a while since I have been on here. Intersesting posts.
What do I want to add?..... My sister went to Choices in 2002. She is 41 yrs old. Its is now 2007. I have watched her life gradualy change and go down since she went to choices. I truly belive that some people are much more suceptible to the harmful after effects of group hypnosois. I know my sister was hypnotized. What she descibes is guided imagery. The no smoking, no caffeine all of it , the stupid games they played, the role palying. She recalls sitting in a dim room and told to close their eyes and go back to their childhood......
Its hard to not get angry. Especially when no one in a position that could really help stop this stuff or shine a bright light on it knows or believes it is happening.
My sister went thru a totally personality change after Choices. She seemed to become a "me" person. What "she" wanted. But also every friend she met, she would almost "copy" everthing about them from clothing styles to music. She no longer wanted to be a part of our family.
And she never wanted to "hear" anything negative. Almost like a don't bum me out" attitude. She ended up quitting a very successful job. And has gone from that to a few jobs that shes loses interest in very quickly.
She has gone to a therapist, that did not work out for her. She said she tried to talk to the theripist about Choices but the therapist always put it off and said we will talk about that next time. She ended up not going back after a few times of that stuff. She felt the therapist was more interested in her being a native living on a rez.
She went to the doc for her emotional state-she's not happy anymore. She feels she is searching for something and can't find it. Doctor put her on meds for depression.
I find myself on this board today because she told me today that something is wrong with her, but she does not know what. The whole family has know that something has been wrong with her for a while now. She said she sees that she has become someone else.
Its like this- she can't say no. She want to please all her friends, by doing and acting like them. She want to have fun all the time. She avoids any kind of conflict like its the end of the world. If someone said hey lets go to timbuck2 she'd go. Its almost like her critical thinking and independant thought are shut down. She recognizes that today.
I could go on with her personality changes. But I think I read some more to see if others in here who were effected loong term.
But how do we help her? How do you walk in to a docs office and say hey all my problems started after I went to a self help group? They are not gonna listen to that and even if they do, then what?
And you know what? My band is still sending people to Choices. Just last spring some youth got into trouble and assaulted another youth. He was charged, but next thing I hear members are fund rasing to send him to Choices! I actually laughed and though "that'll teach him" bad huh?
What do I want to add?..... My sister went to Choices in 2002. She is 41 yrs old. Its is now 2007. I have watched her life gradualy change and go down since she went to choices. I truly belive that some people are much more suceptible to the harmful after effects of group hypnosois. I know my sister was hypnotized. What she descibes is guided imagery. The no smoking, no caffeine all of it , the stupid games they played, the role palying. She recalls sitting in a dim room and told to close their eyes and go back to their childhood......
Its hard to not get angry. Especially when no one in a position that could really help stop this stuff or shine a bright light on it knows or believes it is happening.
My sister went thru a totally personality change after Choices. She seemed to become a "me" person. What "she" wanted. But also every friend she met, she would almost "copy" everthing about them from clothing styles to music. She no longer wanted to be a part of our family.
And she never wanted to "hear" anything negative. Almost like a don't bum me out" attitude. She ended up quitting a very successful job. And has gone from that to a few jobs that shes loses interest in very quickly.
She has gone to a therapist, that did not work out for her. She said she tried to talk to the theripist about Choices but the therapist always put it off and said we will talk about that next time. She ended up not going back after a few times of that stuff. She felt the therapist was more interested in her being a native living on a rez.
She went to the doc for her emotional state-she's not happy anymore. She feels she is searching for something and can't find it. Doctor put her on meds for depression.
I find myself on this board today because she told me today that something is wrong with her, but she does not know what. The whole family has know that something has been wrong with her for a while now. She said she sees that she has become someone else.
Its like this- she can't say no. She want to please all her friends, by doing and acting like them. She want to have fun all the time. She avoids any kind of conflict like its the end of the world. If someone said hey lets go to timbuck2 she'd go. Its almost like her critical thinking and independant thought are shut down. She recognizes that today.
I could go on with her personality changes. But I think I read some more to see if others in here who were effected loong term.
But how do we help her? How do you walk in to a docs office and say hey all my problems started after I went to a self help group? They are not gonna listen to that and even if they do, then what?
And you know what? My band is still sending people to Choices. Just last spring some youth got into trouble and assaulted another youth. He was charged, but next thing I hear members are fund rasing to send him to Choices! I actually laughed and though "that'll teach him" bad huh?
Choices Seminars
Posted by:
SaneAgain
()
Date: August 25, 2007 03:29PM
Hi dragonfly,
I've read that some cult experts (like Margaret Singer) say that therapists can be of no use or even exacerbate the problem if they don't have a good understanding of how cultic groups work, because they tend to push the client into other things like their childhood, or relationships (in your sisters case, being a native living on a res) - so its best to find someone who does understand cults.
Maybe it will help to look for a counsellor who specialises in short-term trauma counselling. They tend to focus on the immediate problem, whatever it is, and only look at other issues if they are relevant to the cause of the trauma.
When you sister goes to any therapist or counsellor she should take some articles from this site that describe the features of a cult / dangerous therapy group and what damage they can do. And its also important to tell them up front some details of what they do on the course, like cradling. If you say 'its one of those courses that break you down then build you up again' they usually get the picture. When I first told my psychiatrist about quest he brushed it off, until I gave him articles and described some of what they do. I was also lucky because he had other patients who did similar courses and had the same problems. If your sister knows other people who have had bad effects from Choices, maybe they could even go in together for the first session, as a group, all with the same problem.
Some good articles to take:
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.antisectes.net]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
I also did a search on the site for posts by people with similar symptoms to me, and took those.
Another problem I had was that the seminars poke around in your heart and mind and afterwards I felt violated, and I didn't want anyone else poking around at me for a while. It felt safer to read everything I could and try to understand it myself, and to post messages and read on this board, where I can be anonymous. The most helpful thing for me is learning about exactly how the courses manipulated me, what kind of tricks they used. That breaks the 'magic spell' they had over me for a time.
I noticed on another thread you asked about the cradling process. We also did the cradling process at Quest. In my view it is very destructive. That is the part where you lose yourself, and it sounds like your sister has lost her 'self' and that is what she is looking for and can't find. That is how I felt after Quest. What happens is they first break down all your defences for a few days, until you are totally vulnerable and and destroyed, then they push you to do something "wonderful" - maybe invent a contract for new yourself like "I Am Beautiful" or do a "stretch" - some dance. After all that you're exhausted and you go into shock and it feels like you're dying. Its a very terrifying feeling. At that point the group or staff catch you and pick you up in their arms and rock you and play music and comfort you. Its like you died from your old life where you were hurt and got reborn to your new life where everyone 'loves' you. But of course its not real love. I think its similar to what some charismatic churches do to convert people. After that its painful to go back to your old hurt self. Its easier to try to be a new person, the 'fun' person that the group gave you a lot of 'love' for, and they tell you you can be "anyone you want to be" - but you don't know what to be, so you end up copying whatever looks good around you. At least I did that a little. And I saw a lot of other people from quest copying the trainers and assistants, even taking on the way they spoke. So I think that whole process is what made me lose myself. Maybe the same for your sister.
And I think its really twisted that this cradling stuff is being pulled into funerals! :shock: .... :evil: :evil: :evil:
Anyway... good luck, I hope your sister recovers well.
I've read that some cult experts (like Margaret Singer) say that therapists can be of no use or even exacerbate the problem if they don't have a good understanding of how cultic groups work, because they tend to push the client into other things like their childhood, or relationships (in your sisters case, being a native living on a res) - so its best to find someone who does understand cults.
Maybe it will help to look for a counsellor who specialises in short-term trauma counselling. They tend to focus on the immediate problem, whatever it is, and only look at other issues if they are relevant to the cause of the trauma.
When you sister goes to any therapist or counsellor she should take some articles from this site that describe the features of a cult / dangerous therapy group and what damage they can do. And its also important to tell them up front some details of what they do on the course, like cradling. If you say 'its one of those courses that break you down then build you up again' they usually get the picture. When I first told my psychiatrist about quest he brushed it off, until I gave him articles and described some of what they do. I was also lucky because he had other patients who did similar courses and had the same problems. If your sister knows other people who have had bad effects from Choices, maybe they could even go in together for the first session, as a group, all with the same problem.
Some good articles to take:
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.antisectes.net]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
I also did a search on the site for posts by people with similar symptoms to me, and took those.
Another problem I had was that the seminars poke around in your heart and mind and afterwards I felt violated, and I didn't want anyone else poking around at me for a while. It felt safer to read everything I could and try to understand it myself, and to post messages and read on this board, where I can be anonymous. The most helpful thing for me is learning about exactly how the courses manipulated me, what kind of tricks they used. That breaks the 'magic spell' they had over me for a time.
I noticed on another thread you asked about the cradling process. We also did the cradling process at Quest. In my view it is very destructive. That is the part where you lose yourself, and it sounds like your sister has lost her 'self' and that is what she is looking for and can't find. That is how I felt after Quest. What happens is they first break down all your defences for a few days, until you are totally vulnerable and and destroyed, then they push you to do something "wonderful" - maybe invent a contract for new yourself like "I Am Beautiful" or do a "stretch" - some dance. After all that you're exhausted and you go into shock and it feels like you're dying. Its a very terrifying feeling. At that point the group or staff catch you and pick you up in their arms and rock you and play music and comfort you. Its like you died from your old life where you were hurt and got reborn to your new life where everyone 'loves' you. But of course its not real love. I think its similar to what some charismatic churches do to convert people. After that its painful to go back to your old hurt self. Its easier to try to be a new person, the 'fun' person that the group gave you a lot of 'love' for, and they tell you you can be "anyone you want to be" - but you don't know what to be, so you end up copying whatever looks good around you. At least I did that a little. And I saw a lot of other people from quest copying the trainers and assistants, even taking on the way they spoke. So I think that whole process is what made me lose myself. Maybe the same for your sister.
And I think its really twisted that this cradling stuff is being pulled into funerals! :shock: .... :evil: :evil: :evil:
Anyway... good luck, I hope your sister recovers well.
Re: Choices Seminars
Posted by:
newgirl08
()
Date: December 13, 2008 02:23AM
Hi dizeb!
I'm wondering if you did end up attending choices. And if you did, how did you find the experience?
I'm wondering if you did end up attending choices. And if you did, how did you find the experience?
Re: Choices Seminars
Posted by:
Pinky
()
Date: September 27, 2009 04:58PM
Hi There,
I know you posted this some years ago,but did you find anything out about the Choices seminars? Is it the same ones run by Thelma Box? My sister wants me to do the 5 day seminar. Does anyone actually know what goes on there? Has anyone had an episode of psychosis while attending or after attending these seminars?
Thanks,
Pinky
I know you posted this some years ago,but did you find anything out about the Choices seminars? Is it the same ones run by Thelma Box? My sister wants me to do the 5 day seminar. Does anyone actually know what goes on there? Has anyone had an episode of psychosis while attending or after attending these seminars?
Thanks,
Pinky
Re: Choices Seminars
Posted by:
newgirl08
()
Date: October 08, 2009 02:30AM
Hi pinky!
Here is a link to a thread related to this one on choices:
http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,64728,72935#msg-72935
I don't know what goes on there, all I know are the effects I've seen in the lives of people I care about. The effects haven't been good. I can tell you what I do know, if you are interested.
newgirl08
Here is a link to a thread related to this one on choices:
http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,64728,72935#msg-72935
I don't know what goes on there, all I know are the effects I've seen in the lives of people I care about. The effects haven't been good. I can tell you what I do know, if you are interested.
newgirl08
Re: Choices Seminars
Posted by:
choicesisajoke
()
Date: April 02, 2010 10:12PM
I know someone who went to a seminar and it has totally changed who they are..they used to be a really good friend and now they are pushing all the crap and stuff on everyone around them including myself that they were brainwashed about at the seminar! They are trying to convince everyone to go as they are pushed to recruit others and it's really sad they can't see its a bunch of rubbish that they've been taught!
Re: Choices Seminars
Posted by:
newgirl08
()
Date: April 03, 2010 06:54AM
I've seen this happen many times unfortunately. You are right, they are encouraged to tell everyone they know and try to get as many people to go as they can. From the sound of things there is no financial benefot to them. The leaders of choices are the ones who line their pockets with the proceeds. Stay strong! Try to be a friend and see if your friend will come around.
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