I was recently duped into attending a Life Success Seminars 'Basic' program in suburban Cincinnati. Their program seems quite similar to what I've read here about Landmark.

Has anybody else here been exposed to them, or had any success in getting a refund?

In more detail, here's what happened to me...

This past Thursday, I had an experience which seemed to me very similar to what is described in your site as typical of groups like EST, Landmark, etc.

Some weeks ago, a coworker recommended a group called 'Life Success Seminars', which are presented in suburban Cincinnati. After the first night, I had to excuse myself and return home to Detroit. The seminar was scheduled to take place Thursday and Friday evening, and all day Saturday and Sunday. I hope to following will make clear why I bailed out.

Upon arrival, while mingling in the reception area, I was approached by a couple of returning students, who shared with me how their life had changed, and how people they live and work with thought their behavior strange after attending - one man told me he had pickup up the nickname "Jedi Knight" at his place of work.

Once inside, a couple of things seemed odd to me. About 1/3 of the students were identified on their nametags as 'Group Leaders', and a panel of 6 people, including the LSS employee who processed my application to attend, sat at the back of the class. Throughout the evening, they did not speak - they just watched the students.

Early on was read a list of rules that got my BS meter going:

• No bathroom breaks outside of scheduled breaks - of which there was only one, some 3+ hours into the evening.

• No note taking. If anyone was seen writing, their paper and pen would be taken from them.

• No phone calls. If a student was expecting a call of a critical nature, they were to give their cell phone to one of the employees at the back of the room, and they would field the calls and decide if it was of sufficient importance to let you take the call.

• No drinking after class.

• If taking prescription medicines, students were to let the employees at the back of the room know, and they would prompt you when it was time to take your meds, as well as get you the water to take them with (again, no leaving the room).

We were also told that when we returned to our normal lives, our families, our friends, and our church would likely begin turning against us. This theme would repeat itself in very personal ways later in the evening, including during the smaller group sessions.

The ideal path, we were told repeatedly, was to follow up this program with a much more expensive ‘advanced’ program, and to return, year after year, to ‘renew’. We were also told really successful people promote the program to others, and volunteer in ‘the kitchen’, though nobody explained what or where ‘the kitchen’ was.

I thought to myself, ‘what the heck’? My body language was picked up on, and the seminar Leader admonished the group, saying no more arm folding would be allowed by me or anyone else. I noticed the Leader often crossed his arms while breaking down one student or another. My ongoing raised eyebrow was noticed as well, and almost every time I looked around the room, one or more of the Group Leaders was staring at me.

The first organized activity in the class was to tell everyone in the class what you were trying to ‘fix’ by attending. There were a few major constituencies within the student ranks: women who had been wronged by men (husbands, boyfriends, or fathers) to the point that they couldn’t enjoy life, men who had been wronged by women (wives, girlfriends, or mothers) to the point that they could not enjoy life, children or partners of previous seminar attendees who had cajoled them into attending, and employees of companies who had told them to attend. I was one of very few people there who was neither in crisis or to appease somebody else. There was one fellow from a drug rehab program that was pointed to the seminar by a church.

When it came time to give my spiel as to why I was there, I didn’t really have a crisis to share, so I told the folks I sometimes feel guilty for the abundant life God has given me. I had to tell them something, right? I did notice some puzzled looks from the panel at the back of the room. Perhaps they were thinking, 'If he’s not screwed up, why’s he here?'

One of the first exercises after that was to approach and address every other student and Group Leader in the room, telling them one of four things:

1. I trust you.
2. I don't trust you.
3. I don't know if I trust you.
4. I don't care to tell you if I trust you.

Being a logical thinker, as well as a polite chap, I shared with each of them that I did not know if I trusted them. Some looked trustworthy, others did not, but who could tell? I didn’t know them from Adam. After we did that, we were instructed to sit in groups of three and share what we had said and felt during this exercise.

Coincidentally, or perhaps not, two of the Group Leaders were pared with me, and insisted on holding my hands during this chat session. Lucky me – nobody else got double-teamed. None of the other groups in the room was holding hands, either. When it was my turn to share with this pair, I told them what I had said to each of the students. The male Group Leader told me that was wrong, that either I trust people, or I do not. I asked ‘like a light switch, on or off’? He said ‘yes – exactly – it’s black or white’. I told him I thought that was flawed on two levels. One, not knowing one thing about these people other than the name on their nametag and their previously shared reason for attending, I did not have sufficient data to trust or not trust them.
Second, even if I know someone very well, I may trust his or her intentions but not their abilities. As an example, I told them I trust my wife implicitly, but I would not trust her to fix the furnace. Both Group Leaders agreed that made sense, and seemed disappointed that I was not falling into line.

Throughout this handholding session, the male Group Leader kept moving his thumb against my hand in a staccato fashion. Very odd.

After I was able to get my hands back, the next exercise was to share stories about who we did not trust, and why. Every story was turned against the teller by the seminar Leader. If the student did not trust somebody, they were told they were wrong, and that they really did not trust themselves. Seeing this as a ploy to get us into groupthink (we are all broken by life, and the Leader can fix us!), I did not volunteer a story. One man, who did, told the Leader that when his trust was betrayed, he chalked it up to experience and said a prayer for the person who wronged hem, because that is what his bible told him to do. The Leader told him his understanding of the bible was wrong. ‘So this gentleman’s interpretation of God’s word is trumped by the Leader?’ I thought.

Throughout the evening, if a student commented or suggested anything to another student during one of these exercises, they was told ‘you’re tying to fix him (or her)’; stop doing that! - the implication being that only the Leader could ‘fix’ anyone.
Our next activity was to close our eyes and repeat a mantra: “I don’t trust myself, I don’t understand myself, and I don’t like myself. We were told to wallow in how those words made us feel.

Were then given another mantra, “I love you and I trust you, even though I don’t understand you” This was repeated over and over, and we were told to wallow in how those words made us feel. Strangely missing was anything to balance our earlier mantra about not liking ourselves. I though that odd, but much in keeping with what I was beginning to think was not an altruistic organization wanting to help me to enjoy my life more. I was sure at this point that there was a concerted attempt to program us going on. We were then told to repeat the encounter exercise, and tell each person in the room, individually, “I love you and I trust you, even though I don’t understand you”. In other words, lie to everyone in the room.

After the much delayed bathroom break (why did they promote the coffee and water so heavily before the class, and during this break, if we only going to be allowed to urinate every 3+ hours?) we were told to pick the Group Leader we most wanted to work with in a group setting. That was a Hobb’s choice.

I chose the person I considered the least offensive, since she had not been giving me the stink-eye like the others. We all huddled together and were told to tell our little group about ourselves, while new-age music was played on the sound system. I told the group about the makeup of my family, my job, etc. The Group Leader asked where my wife was. When I told her I had attended the class on my own, she told me ‘you are very brave’. Huh? She said it would have been easy to not attend if my wife did not want me to. Where did she get the impression that my wife didn’t want me there? I got the distinct feeling this was a practiced line they use to drive a wedge between attendees and their families, and install LSS in their place. I told her, ‘OK, if you say so…’


It was now time to get into a group hug, close our eyes and listen to secular songs about the brotherhood of man, Gandhi, the poor, etc., though I’m not sure why. While our eyes were closed, I heard people moving around the room, and felt something brush against my arm. (Upon returning to my hotel that night, I found a line of purple ink on my elbow.)

As the evening was drawing to a close, we were then told we would have to write three pages in a journal about how the class would change us, and that we should repeat the ‘I love you’ mantra throughout the day, before returning Friday night. We were also told to give ‘our’ Group Leader the address we were staying at and our phone numbers, in case there was a ‘problem’ and didn’t show up for Friday’s session.
My BS meter was pegged.

After one more eyes-closed group hug where we told to ‘listen to the words’ of another secular song, I picked up my ‘homework’ sheet, got back to my hotel (it was now after midnight Friday morning), and booked a return flight to Detroit for later that day.

I have contacted Life Success Seminars and requested a refund of the tuition. I was told I was not entitled to a refund. I could only collect a refund after completing all four days. I may have to take them to court.

Tell them you intend to show up at the next "seminar" and make a scene in front of other customers if you do not get your refund. Let them know you think you've been exposed to mind or thought control or brainwashing. They hate that and will probably write you a check quickly just to get rid of you. Don't let them tell you it will be sent. Tell them you want the check before you leave.

Good luck,

EZ

Here's a link to the Awareness Page:


[perso.orange.fr]


Scroll down to the bottom where you'll find the "Fictional LGAT" section.

All these groups use the same model. They have a formula and they stick to it.


Best to you,

Ellen

As much as a public confrontation would be fun, I'm already out the price of plane tickets, a hotel that I booked for 4 nights, and a rental car, in addition to the seminar fee.

I guess I'll have to start working them over more intensely on the phone, followed by registered letters.

That's too bad.

You might have to sue them, but I'd try making a big nuisance of myself first. This group looks like a Landmark clone and if so, they won't do anything until you become a liability or an embarrassment. Do they know you are in another city?

If you do threaten to sue, be sure to tell them that you weren't given a full disclosure and that their sales tactics were deceptive. They hate a loose cannon and will probably do whatever you want if you tell them you are having psychological problems after whatever portion of the training you did sit through and you think they used hypnosis on you without your consent.

These people don't operate under the normal rules of conduct and they really have no respect for your wishes or rights so take that into consideration when dealing with them. I'd be willing to bet they write out a check to you if you say something about consulting a lawyer.


Ellen

I checked the "Life Success" website and it looks like another copy-cat. One thing that distinguishes these guys is their singular lack of imagination. It's almost as though they think if they deviate from the formula they might screw it up or something.

Couldn't find anything on Mike Monahan. I'd like to know if he's an "estie" or a "lifespringer," though it doesn't really matter. They're all the same. His "tuition" is so high. What a nerve!

How did you make the connection between your "seminar" and Werner Erhard's?



Ellen

Iamwondering,

thankyou for your detailed and thoughtful account.

Frightening and very disturbing.

Still no refund. It's off to court I go...

IamWondering, This group very much like PSI Seminars, if you want to check those threads. Thats if you haven't already.