Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
Monkeyvomit
()
Date: June 30, 2006 07:32AM
Good evening (well, its evening HERE anyway),
First off, I have read the last three solid pages of threads in this particular forum, and nearly every other article on this site. The resources that are available are nothing short of phenomenal.
My particular situation appears to resonate differently with me than the majority of the others posted from concerned friends and family members, which is the only reason why I am starting a new thread. Basically, I am looking for more feedback about my specific situation.
And here it is. Ill try to keep this as brief as possible. I appreciate your taking the time to read in advance:
I am 30 yrs old, and married. My father and stepmother recently joined Landmark together. They invited me to join them for their Tuesday night graduation. Initially I had hoped to go along with my wife (I knew nothing about the Forum, I just wanted to be there for my Dad because he asked). However due to circumstances outside of my control, we ended up not being able to go. My father did ask why (mainly money, their seminar was in Cincinnatti which is a two hour drive each way, and we were already short on cash at that point in the month). He offered to give us a ride, and I would have accepted except that my wife really had a lot of work to do. Since we had never committed to going, I felt a bit of sorrow that I could not be there for him, but no guilt. My father did not push the issue at all, and said that he understood.
This past weekend my dad mentioned that there was a seminar in Cincinnatti on Tuesday, and that he was able to bring a guest. My wife was unavailable, but I was free. I gladly accepted his invitation. At this point he has told me a great deal about how the Forum has changed his life, and offered some basic insights into how and what a few of the exercises were. Most importantly, he is focused on how it has helped him in his life.
[b:a52c532831]This intrigues me, because my father has been a relatively unhappy person his entire life.[/b:a52c532831] He is brilliant, and a leading educator in the field of literacy. While he is gregarious and a skilled conversationalist, he is also generally unhappy. I dont think he ever quite figured himself out.
[b:a52c532831]What I notice in him now is an amazing reversal.[/b:a52c532831] He appears both far more lucid, but also far more honest with himself, his wife, and with me. My stepmother appears to have enjoyed a similar transformation, and I must admit that I find her far more interesting to talk to than I have for the previous 20 years of their marriage.
In short, from my perspective into the operation of these individuals in their native environments (i.e., away from the forum) is that they appear more happy, healthy, and confident than they ever have before.
With that in mind, I go to the seminar with them. I'll spare you the details, as they are easily recounted in all of their variations in other posts on these boards. I got the hard sell, declined, and moved on to meet up with my dad and stepmom again.
Driving home I was conflicted. I felt like I had just witnessed...something...that I wasn't entirely ok with. I couldnt place my finger on it. During the exercise for the newcomers, I was the only one in my group who was utterly without any emotional connection by the end of the activity. I dont have a reasonable explanation why, except that at this point in my life, I simply do not have much emotional baggage. Everyone in my group, on the other hand, seemed to be suffering from a great many regrets and emotional hurdles.
[b:a52c532831]I came home, and stayed up till about 3am doing research on the Landmark Forum.[/b:a52c532831] Much of it was on this site, as well as LECs own site and many others. I have come to the conclusion that even if I was NOT slightly wary of the Forums past and present techniques, it is not for me.
So here is the crux I am presented with: I am concerned that this may be a poor influence on my father, but I have absolutely NO empirical evidence that supports that conclusion. My father is not displaying many of the more troubling symptoms of "lekkies" as described on these boards. Instead, I have seen a very real and very positive change in him.
What should I do or say, if anything? [b:a52c532831]My question to all of you is: Can this be a GOOD thing for some people, as it appears it may be for my father and stepmother? [/b:a52c532831] I dont think I will ever stop being wary or watchful for the destructive behavioral patterns described in these forums, but CAN this be a good thing for some? Obviously I want to believe so, but I would like feedback on that.
I appreciate any and all responses.
[b:a52c532831][i:a52c532831]P.S. : My apologies for the somewhat grotesque nature of my username. I have been using it for years in online gaming, and it is simply habit. Please look past that, if possible.[/i:a52c532831][/b:a52c532831]
First off, I have read the last three solid pages of threads in this particular forum, and nearly every other article on this site. The resources that are available are nothing short of phenomenal.
My particular situation appears to resonate differently with me than the majority of the others posted from concerned friends and family members, which is the only reason why I am starting a new thread. Basically, I am looking for more feedback about my specific situation.
And here it is. Ill try to keep this as brief as possible. I appreciate your taking the time to read in advance:
I am 30 yrs old, and married. My father and stepmother recently joined Landmark together. They invited me to join them for their Tuesday night graduation. Initially I had hoped to go along with my wife (I knew nothing about the Forum, I just wanted to be there for my Dad because he asked). However due to circumstances outside of my control, we ended up not being able to go. My father did ask why (mainly money, their seminar was in Cincinnatti which is a two hour drive each way, and we were already short on cash at that point in the month). He offered to give us a ride, and I would have accepted except that my wife really had a lot of work to do. Since we had never committed to going, I felt a bit of sorrow that I could not be there for him, but no guilt. My father did not push the issue at all, and said that he understood.
This past weekend my dad mentioned that there was a seminar in Cincinnatti on Tuesday, and that he was able to bring a guest. My wife was unavailable, but I was free. I gladly accepted his invitation. At this point he has told me a great deal about how the Forum has changed his life, and offered some basic insights into how and what a few of the exercises were. Most importantly, he is focused on how it has helped him in his life.
[b:a52c532831]This intrigues me, because my father has been a relatively unhappy person his entire life.[/b:a52c532831] He is brilliant, and a leading educator in the field of literacy. While he is gregarious and a skilled conversationalist, he is also generally unhappy. I dont think he ever quite figured himself out.
[b:a52c532831]What I notice in him now is an amazing reversal.[/b:a52c532831] He appears both far more lucid, but also far more honest with himself, his wife, and with me. My stepmother appears to have enjoyed a similar transformation, and I must admit that I find her far more interesting to talk to than I have for the previous 20 years of their marriage.
In short, from my perspective into the operation of these individuals in their native environments (i.e., away from the forum) is that they appear more happy, healthy, and confident than they ever have before.
With that in mind, I go to the seminar with them. I'll spare you the details, as they are easily recounted in all of their variations in other posts on these boards. I got the hard sell, declined, and moved on to meet up with my dad and stepmom again.
Driving home I was conflicted. I felt like I had just witnessed...something...that I wasn't entirely ok with. I couldnt place my finger on it. During the exercise for the newcomers, I was the only one in my group who was utterly without any emotional connection by the end of the activity. I dont have a reasonable explanation why, except that at this point in my life, I simply do not have much emotional baggage. Everyone in my group, on the other hand, seemed to be suffering from a great many regrets and emotional hurdles.
[b:a52c532831]I came home, and stayed up till about 3am doing research on the Landmark Forum.[/b:a52c532831] Much of it was on this site, as well as LECs own site and many others. I have come to the conclusion that even if I was NOT slightly wary of the Forums past and present techniques, it is not for me.
So here is the crux I am presented with: I am concerned that this may be a poor influence on my father, but I have absolutely NO empirical evidence that supports that conclusion. My father is not displaying many of the more troubling symptoms of "lekkies" as described on these boards. Instead, I have seen a very real and very positive change in him.
What should I do or say, if anything? [b:a52c532831]My question to all of you is: Can this be a GOOD thing for some people, as it appears it may be for my father and stepmother? [/b:a52c532831] I dont think I will ever stop being wary or watchful for the destructive behavioral patterns described in these forums, but CAN this be a good thing for some? Obviously I want to believe so, but I would like feedback on that.
I appreciate any and all responses.
[b:a52c532831][i:a52c532831]P.S. : My apologies for the somewhat grotesque nature of my username. I have been using it for years in online gaming, and it is simply habit. Please look past that, if possible.[/i:a52c532831][/b:a52c532831]
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
joe6
()
Date: July 01, 2006 01:40AM
Landmark members are conditioned to believe that Landmark is a "high integrity organization". But the more you investigate Landmark, the worse it gets, so if your father wants to contiue in the happy trance he is in, he will have to use Landmark methods to bury himself deeper and deeper in denial. And if you refuse to go on that path with him, you will start to lose him. It is the sad story repeated over and over that we have all experienced.
As to why Landmark is not a "high integrity organization", are you aware that if Landmark had its way, you would not be posting here? They sued to censor this site. For your background reading, read this on who your father is getting involved with:
[www.culteducation.com]
Read especially the briefing that was written in the Self Magazine case which quotes pretty disturbing sections of the Forum Supervisors Manual:
[www.culteducation.com]
As to why Landmark is not a "high integrity organization", are you aware that if Landmark had its way, you would not be posting here? They sued to censor this site. For your background reading, read this on who your father is getting involved with:
[www.culteducation.com]
Read especially the briefing that was written in the Self Magazine case which quotes pretty disturbing sections of the Forum Supervisors Manual:
[www.culteducation.com]
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
Monkeyvomit
()
Date: July 01, 2006 02:53AM
I appreciate the response. As I stated above, I have read much if not all of the material available on this site regarding the Landmark Forum, est, Erhard, and crew.
My opinions on it as on organization are VERY firmly set in opposition.
My opinions are equally firm that I have no desire to participate in the Forum unless I may choose which documents and waivers to sign.
What I have having difficulty believing is that the Landmark Forum can be a bad thing ALL the time. If that were the case, it seems that there would be far more testimonial regarding the negative effects. In fact, it appears that there is very little considering the size and scope of their membership.
Once again, I do not have any doubt that Landmark is a dangerous organization at it's very core. However the question remains: If it is so patently evil, and if it is a certainty that all who participate suffer from it, then why is there so little testimony to substantiate that claim?
I admitted upfront that I do WANT to believe that this truly can be a god experience for my Father, and by all methods of measurement it appears to be. Am I to believe that there is ZERO chance of positive growth and happiness out of the Landmark Forum?
My opinions on it as on organization are VERY firmly set in opposition.
My opinions are equally firm that I have no desire to participate in the Forum unless I may choose which documents and waivers to sign.
What I have having difficulty believing is that the Landmark Forum can be a bad thing ALL the time. If that were the case, it seems that there would be far more testimonial regarding the negative effects. In fact, it appears that there is very little considering the size and scope of their membership.
Once again, I do not have any doubt that Landmark is a dangerous organization at it's very core. However the question remains: If it is so patently evil, and if it is a certainty that all who participate suffer from it, then why is there so little testimony to substantiate that claim?
I admitted upfront that I do WANT to believe that this truly can be a god experience for my Father, and by all methods of measurement it appears to be. Am I to believe that there is ZERO chance of positive growth and happiness out of the Landmark Forum?
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: July 01, 2006 04:35AM
Well I would like to take the stance of flexibility her. As much as I personally detest the Erhardian method, whether est of Landmark, there are probably those who will benefit from it to some degree [i:5c84031ee6] if they have the sense to count their winnings and move on [/i:5c84031ee6] ... it may be just the psychic jolt or shock that some personality types respond well to. For these types, that first benefit can also be the opening for a long period of seduction and over involvement. Other people don't respond so well to the Landmark indoctrination, some appear to respond very badly indeed, and some walk away with relativve indifference. My advice at this point is [b:5c84031ee6] pay close attention to your inner feelings of comfort or discomfort, and do not shut off any feelings of "not rightness" [/b:5c84031ee6] ... you brianstem is handing you essential information that you would be ill advised to ignore... and don't start rationalizing those feelings away... nor should you be agitated by them... just notice them and respect the message they have for you.
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
sonnie_dee
()
Date: July 01, 2006 06:35AM
As much as I don't like landmark, there are those who get benefits from it without it impacting them otherwise. the thing to be aware of is the fake high that starts to go but comes back when doing another course, Its how people get sucked in to keeping going.
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
joe6
()
Date: July 01, 2006 08:59AM
> If that were the case, it seems that there would be far more testimonial regarding the negative effects. In fact, it appears that there is very little considering the size and scope of their membership.
If your father stays in Landmark long enough to become incommunicable with you, will you consider that a "negative effect." Perhaps you don't think this is possible. Perhaps the people writing here who have lost their friends, spouses, children and parents to the mind-lock of Landmark seem like a minority.
I had thought that the people I lost were too intelligent to get sucked in. I was wrong. You hear me giving "negative testimonial". But where would you go to hear the testamonial of all the others who lost loved ones to Landmark? Would you expect to see a front page editorial, a made-for-TV movie? And what if no TV producer would want to risk a Landmark lawsuit?
The laws concerning press freedoms are different in other countries. In Sweden, France and others the press has been able to freely cover Landmark without getting sued, and there you do indeed hear lots of "negative testimony." And in those countries Landmark did not survive.
As for people IN Landmark, what about their negative testimony? This is why the experienced people here are taking the time to try to explain how mind control works. It is a highly developed science.
It is reasonable for you to think "Well if I don't hear testimony all the time about how dangerous Landmark is, maybe it's not that dangerous." But you can also find good reasons why you wouldn't hear all that tesimony, even though it is indeed dangerous. That's what's going on here.
Think about this too: Maybe your father can "get something good out of Landmark" and be luck enough to have the mental defenses to avoid getting sucked in. But he will inevitably start recruiting, start "recommending" Landmark to others. This is irresponsible because even if he has defenses, others most likely will not, and he will be responsible for pushing them infront of that trainwreck. Think about that one. I'm not saying you have to do anything about it. Just think about it, and stay alert as you watch it happen, and maybe you will think of the right thing to say.
If your father stays in Landmark long enough to become incommunicable with you, will you consider that a "negative effect." Perhaps you don't think this is possible. Perhaps the people writing here who have lost their friends, spouses, children and parents to the mind-lock of Landmark seem like a minority.
I had thought that the people I lost were too intelligent to get sucked in. I was wrong. You hear me giving "negative testimonial". But where would you go to hear the testamonial of all the others who lost loved ones to Landmark? Would you expect to see a front page editorial, a made-for-TV movie? And what if no TV producer would want to risk a Landmark lawsuit?
The laws concerning press freedoms are different in other countries. In Sweden, France and others the press has been able to freely cover Landmark without getting sued, and there you do indeed hear lots of "negative testimony." And in those countries Landmark did not survive.
As for people IN Landmark, what about their negative testimony? This is why the experienced people here are taking the time to try to explain how mind control works. It is a highly developed science.
It is reasonable for you to think "Well if I don't hear testimony all the time about how dangerous Landmark is, maybe it's not that dangerous." But you can also find good reasons why you wouldn't hear all that tesimony, even though it is indeed dangerous. That's what's going on here.
Think about this too: Maybe your father can "get something good out of Landmark" and be luck enough to have the mental defenses to avoid getting sucked in. But he will inevitably start recruiting, start "recommending" Landmark to others. This is irresponsible because even if he has defenses, others most likely will not, and he will be responsible for pushing them infront of that trainwreck. Think about that one. I'm not saying you have to do anything about it. Just think about it, and stay alert as you watch it happen, and maybe you will think of the right thing to say.
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: July 01, 2006 09:51AM
Quote
Monkeyvomit
What I have having difficulty believing is that the Landmark Forum can be a bad thing ALL the time. If that were the case, it seems that there would be far more testimonial regarding the negative effects. In fact, it appears that there is very little considering the size and scope of their membership.
This guy's site went missing a couple of years ago. Lots of people wrote to him in the brief time he was collecting opinions. You should be able to click on the "Love Landmark" and "Weird" links. Also, his home page at the bottom of the page.
[web.archive.org]
Ellen
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
estie
()
Date: July 01, 2006 11:28AM
Quote
Monkeyvomit
What I have having difficulty believing is that the Landmark Forum can be a bad thing ALL the time. If that were the case, it seems that there would be far more testimonial regarding the negative effects. In fact, it appears that there is very little considering the size and scope of their membership.
Well, there would be, but Landmark sues or threatens to sue anyone who publicly says they had negative effects. Cuts it down considerably.
BTW, ask your father if there isn't [b:252e6b0949]always [/b:252e6b0949]another seminar on Tuesday.
Estie
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
Monkeyvomit
()
Date: July 01, 2006 12:36PM
I appreciate all of the links and suggestions.
To Joe6 and others, I understand your concern, and I share it. I certainly do not discount the veracity of the stories from many others here on these boards regarding the loss of communication with a family member or friend who joined the forum.
I believe them, and I am scared. I wouldnt be posting here if I truly believed that this was all going to turn out alright.
My questions were merely meant to probe for some spark of hope. I came to the conclusion - long before I posted - that there are only three possibilities going forward:
1) My father continues Landmark, and our relationship suffers
2) My father continues Landmark, and our relationship does not suffer (or perhaps even improves)
3) My father quits Landmark.
Since I consider option 3 to be the ideal, I choose to discount it and prepare for the two other less desireable outcomes. If it progresses to option 1, then there is little that I can do other than continue on my current course.
However what I came to post here for was specificaly to solicit the communities thoughts on the possibility of POSITIVE results from Landmark, without it becoming dangerous or harmful. I realize that this is generally accepted to be unlikely. But I continue to hope.
From what I have heard, it seems that there is a SLIGHT possibility that he may come through this a better man (and admittedly, he needed some help). That is enough for me. I am not foolish enough to believe it will happen, but I can at least hope.
I appreciate all of the responses and support. I hope that my initial post did not come off as a dismissal of the heartache or stories of loss from others here. I came here looking for even a small glimmer of hope because I HAVE read those testimonials. I have read the articles, the lawsuit documents, the biographies, and an inordinate amount of the posts in this very forum. I dont doubt the seriousness of this situation or the power that Landmark can exercise over it's participants.
But this thread has given me hope
To Joe6 and others, I understand your concern, and I share it. I certainly do not discount the veracity of the stories from many others here on these boards regarding the loss of communication with a family member or friend who joined the forum.
I believe them, and I am scared. I wouldnt be posting here if I truly believed that this was all going to turn out alright.
My questions were merely meant to probe for some spark of hope. I came to the conclusion - long before I posted - that there are only three possibilities going forward:
1) My father continues Landmark, and our relationship suffers
2) My father continues Landmark, and our relationship does not suffer (or perhaps even improves)
3) My father quits Landmark.
Since I consider option 3 to be the ideal, I choose to discount it and prepare for the two other less desireable outcomes. If it progresses to option 1, then there is little that I can do other than continue on my current course.
However what I came to post here for was specificaly to solicit the communities thoughts on the possibility of POSITIVE results from Landmark, without it becoming dangerous or harmful. I realize that this is generally accepted to be unlikely. But I continue to hope.
From what I have heard, it seems that there is a SLIGHT possibility that he may come through this a better man (and admittedly, he needed some help). That is enough for me. I am not foolish enough to believe it will happen, but I can at least hope.
I appreciate all of the responses and support. I hope that my initial post did not come off as a dismissal of the heartache or stories of loss from others here. I came here looking for even a small glimmer of hope because I HAVE read those testimonials. I have read the articles, the lawsuit documents, the biographies, and an inordinate amount of the posts in this very forum. I dont doubt the seriousness of this situation or the power that Landmark can exercise over it's participants.
But this thread has given me hope
Father joins Landmark
Posted by:
nutrino
()
Date: July 01, 2006 09:38PM
As a gereral observation.... not everyone who externally appears to be strong has a genuinely strong core sense of self. LGATs and cults have a special appeal, perhaps even a necessity for those with lower "core consciousness". If you father has a solid internal idea of who he is and what he is not, he may be able to benefit from the experience and emerge a better, more awakened person. He won't automatically become an enrolled android. The personalities that seem to really become near religious fanatics about these things are the hollow vessles who have finally discovered their state of hollowness and been given to believe that this new thing they have found is a cure for that hollowness.
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